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  • #31
    Find a co-resident who is on outpatient who could cover you.  This way when your coverage becomes an issue you are already prepared.  Just have someone on the hook to trade weeks with.  I am sure the other residents would not mind.  I remember covering for issues like this all the time and they covered me when I needed it.  My admin was cool as long as the work was getting done.

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    • #32
      I think this is the nth time this subject in some variation pops up on this board. I am surprised that there has been a long gap from the previous one.

      There is always going to be issues with mothers versus non mothers, fathers versus non fathers, couples adopting a baby versus those choosing to be childless and even couples wanting to take time off for pet adoption versus those who want nothing to do with pets. Whatever be one's views of children being good for the future of the country, the best way to is to treat everyone equally as to not cause resentment.

      Maybe it is time to bring a separate category of discretionary leave separate from vacation and sick time - use it for maternity, paternity, adoption, time off for spiritual healing, whatever. And that is built into the schedule so that no group feels that one is suffering because of the choices made by others that they don't have / choose not to have.

      For the record I am a father but would like to be treated the same way as a man who chooses to have no child as far as leave and work are concerned.

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      • #33




        Find a co-resident who is on outpatient who could cover you.  This way when your coverage becomes an issue you are already prepared.  Just have someone on the hook to trade weeks with.  I am sure the other residents would not mind.  I remember covering for issues like this all the time and they covered me when I needed it.  My admin was cool as long as the work was getting done.
        Click to expand...


        This is also a good option to take.

        Unless you have a great job lined up and an iron clad contract signed don't rock the boat too much. In the end the person who will pay the price should the program not write a stellar letter of recommendation would be you, not me or any of the posters of this forum.

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        • #34




          I’m not allowed to use vacation during inpatient months so that’s out. I am waiting for a reply from my PD and if the peds department continues to be this obstructive, I will have to go the FMLA route. Not planning on hiring an attorney as that seems a little over the top to me.
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          You are wise to handle this in a collegial fashion.  I would simply point out to them their own policy, and ask them to follow their own rules.  Have you seen the departmental ACGME parental leave policy?

          If that does not apply for some reason, then I would ask for the three days under FMLA.  You could print that out for them as well, simply point to the requirements, and ask them to comply with the law.  I would thank them politely for allowing you to take those few days that you need to attend to this once in a lifetime event.

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          • #35
            OP,
            You are pushing back the correct way. Using your PD and. relying on he/she is the right way. By the way. If you have to use FMLA, the trick is your hours of training required. Give up vacation, work extra shifts to keep from having to pay a huge price extending. You can actually use this “poorly run scheduling “ to your advantage. Interviews is a great example and the scheduling of your time for the child. Your PD and Dept Chair can gain a great respect, not only advocate now they have a personal vested interest in pushing you. They have limitations and constraints too. For example, front loading hours would be a great pain, but they might slip it in documented so you don’t have anything to make up. Having mentors in your corner is a huge advantage. Keep them there.
            Keep every interview document and request even if you turned it in. Amazing how residents get caught in crossfires. April will come and go before you know it.

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            • #36
              Si vis pacem, para bellum

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              • #37
                How about talk to PD directly? This is what they are there for.

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                • #38
                  Usual chain of command:  Chiefs, PD, your institution's GME office, big ACGME office.  It's really a matter of policy/procedures.  Go up the chain of command as needed and know that the law is behind you to get the time off. Your institution should have its own GME manual of policies/procedures (probably even online).  If you were female, there's no way they would say "you can have the day you deliver off, but you need to be back to work the next day."  However, to sit for boards, you typically can't have more than 4 weeks off in any given year, so you can't violate that ACGME policy (have a lot of time off and also complete training).

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                  • #39
                    I have to add that you must have really stupid chiefs. Like, really stupid and on a power trip. There are so many ways they could have worked this put for you- just had less coverage since there's another senior, as you noted; they could have pulled a resident from an elective or asked for volunteers to trade, or they could have picked up a week between them. Using their chiefly skills, they could have looked up the policy themselves or talked to GME or PD.

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                    • #40
                      This is so petty. I had two children during my husband's surgical subspecialty residency (2nd year and 5th year). He planned on a week each time, but with complications he ended up taking 10 days. No one was upset and they were extra helpful and kind about it. When a resident mate had 2 premie babies- he took 2 weeks too- and with out planning (you know- because they were premie).

                      Take all the time you and your wife need and don't feel bad about it.

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                      • #41










                        Just curious to ask around about this. My wife and I are having our third child in April. I’m a PGY-4 and finishing residency in June. I received an email today from one of the chief residents that “we can allow you to use a sick day on the day of your baby’s birth while inpatient. The next day you would be expected to be at work.” No compassion shown or thought given to the fact that this is a new baby we’re talking about. Not to mention that I asked 6 months in advance for careful consideration of my schedule so that I could have 3 to 4 days off at least to help with the process, the transition home, and helping with the other kids at home. I also love how they’re “allowing” me to use a sick day so I can see the birth of my child. No family of ours is local either just FYI. Am I way off here or is this just crazy?
                        Click to expand…


                        Sounds like my first three kids (one in residency, two in military.) I think I had two days with my fourth one before I worked another shift.

                        The good news? I was there for every birth (and was the only doctor present for two of them.)

                        The bad news? We needed to rely on friends and family for assistance with the other kids while we were at the hospital. But it’s not like I was taking them to L&D anyway.

                        At any rate, I think most would agree that paternity leave would be really nice, it’s hard to put it on the same pedestal as maternity leave. And neither are free. If you want it, the money has to come from somewhere and the work has to be done by somebody else. Maybe you get a lower salary for it. Maybe you pay higher taxes for it. Maybe the doctors who don’t have kids are forced to give it to you. But it isn’t free.

                        Actually, now that I think about it, I was given a week of paternity leave by the military for one of those kids. We saved it up and used it for a vacation when the kid was 6-8 weeks old. We didn’t think burning it on paternity leave right after birth (especially when MIL was going to be there) was the best use of it.
                        Click to expand…


                        The law views paternity and maternity leave exactly the same way for civilians. Some states have stronger laws, but the basic federal law is the same, no matter what one’s personal view of maternity vs paternity leave.
                        Click to expand...


                        I don't doubt you. But I do ask you if you think that is reasonable. Personally, I think maternity leave is FAR more important than paternity leave. Basic biology. Anyone want to argue with me that the first 12 months beginning at conception are just as hard for dad as mom? I didn't think so.
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                        • #42
                          Having been faculty at both community programs and major academic universities, I will say that chiefs know nothing of ACGME and institutional rules, you need to talk with your PD.  All academic institutions have concrete guidelines in place, even community programs have to follow their hospital systems' rules.  These guidelines follow both state and federal laws along with ACGME rules.  GME office is also helpful and usually PD's will include or defer to them to make sure they're following the rules.  Nobody wants to risk an ACGME violation/complaint.  Do not hit the panic button or start calling lawyers...
                          It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy, I'll get a saw.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I just want to say that this is really sad. Not just the Chief's response, but the several replies here that seem to normalize this. Whether because of "money", coverage, length of training, or whatever reason, why have we designed a system that is so hostile?

                            Comment


                            • #44













                              Just curious to ask around about this. My wife and I are having our third child in April. I’m a PGY-4 and finishing residency in June. I received an email today from one of the chief residents that “we can allow you to use a sick day on the day of your baby’s birth while inpatient. The next day you would be expected to be at work.” No compassion shown or thought given to the fact that this is a new baby we’re talking about. Not to mention that I asked 6 months in advance for careful consideration of my schedule so that I could have 3 to 4 days off at least to help with the process, the transition home, and helping with the other kids at home. I also love how they’re “allowing” me to use a sick day so I can see the birth of my child. No family of ours is local either just FYI. Am I way off here or is this just crazy?
                              Click to expand…


                              Sounds like my first three kids (one in residency, two in military.) I think I had two days with my fourth one before I worked another shift.

                              The good news? I was there for every birth (and was the only doctor present for two of them.)

                              The bad news? We needed to rely on friends and family for assistance with the other kids while we were at the hospital. But it’s not like I was taking them to L&D anyway.

                              At any rate, I think most would agree that paternity leave would be really nice, it’s hard to put it on the same pedestal as maternity leave. And neither are free. If you want it, the money has to come from somewhere and the work has to be done by somebody else. Maybe you get a lower salary for it. Maybe you pay higher taxes for it. Maybe the doctors who don’t have kids are forced to give it to you. But it isn’t free.

                              Actually, now that I think about it, I was given a week of paternity leave by the military for one of those kids. We saved it up and used it for a vacation when the kid was 6-8 weeks old. We didn’t think burning it on paternity leave right after birth (especially when MIL was going to be there) was the best use of it.
                              Click to expand…


                              The law views paternity and maternity leave exactly the same way for civilians. Some states have stronger laws, but the basic federal law is the same, no matter what one’s personal view of maternity vs paternity leave.
                              Click to expand…


                              I don’t doubt you. But I do ask you if you think that is reasonable. Personally, I think maternity leave is FAR more important than paternity leave. Basic biology. Anyone want to argue with me that the first 12 months beginning at conception are just as hard for dad as mom? I didn’t think so.
                              Click to expand...


                              So you want to leave mom at home to watch 2 kids + a newborn by herself the day after delivering?

                              Comment


                              • #45


                                why have we designed a system that is so hostile?
                                Click to expand...


                                One of the hostilities is that a resident sends and email with a request, people complain that its so unfair, illegal and doesn't even talk to the Chief. I feel very sorry for the Chief. He/she has been trashed as representing the "hostile" and big bad establishment. The guy/girl makes like $1500 more per year, has the same duties on top of all the crap. Now, the "physicians" give the advice to head off up the ladder, PD's, lawyers and then ask advice online.

                                Pick up the phone or stop in. Wouldn't it be amazing if he/she said, "Dang, here is what we need to do. xxxx Are we cool?"

                                Meekly say "thanks for covering my a$$". Not once did OP mention anyone being hostile, let alone the Chief. Oh ACGME and legal action! It's OP's responsibility to communicate. Figure it out.

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