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Student loans: Michael Lewis exposes some pretty nasty behavior regarding PSLF

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  • #61





    The schools have ZERO incentive to lower tuition or alert you to the real risk. 
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    That’s the biggest problem I have. It’s just a positive reinforcement circle between schools and the federal government. I wish it were mandatory for the schools to sit down with each student when they’ve selected a major and go over the financial costs and run some projections for them. It may not necessarily help everyone, but it certainly wouldn’t hurt.
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    Yes!

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    • #62
      Personally, I'd argue you should have the student sign an informed consent when their student debt load reaches 50% of average salaries five years after graduation for graduates in that major from that university.  Have them sign again at 100% and then at 2X, 3X, 4X etc. multiples.  Stop providing federal loans for shady for-profit schools.

      No one should be surprised when they find out that a major in critical studies and a minor in psych is viewed by many prospective employers as a major in grievance studies and a minor in crazy.  Job prospects are pretty good for engineering, hard sciences, nursing, accounting, actuarial science, or a useful skilled trade like plumbing, electrical, etc.

      If you're going to be a barrista or work at Costco or the post office, you don't need $100K+ in student loan debt.

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      • #63




        Personally, I’d argue you should have the student sign an informed consent when their student debt load reaches 50% of average salaries five years after graduation for graduates in that major from that.  Have them sign again at 100% and then at 2X, 3X, 4X etc. multiples.  Stop providing federal loans for shady for-profit schools.

        No one should be surprised when they find out that a major in critical studies and a minor in psych is viewed by many prospective employers as a major in grievance studies and a minor in crazy.  Job prospects are pretty good for engineering, hard sciences, accounting, actuarial science, or a useful skilled trade like plumbing, electrical, etc.

        If you’re going to be a barrista or work at Costco or the post office, you don’t need $100K+ in student loand debt.
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        I would like federal loans to be capped at a certain percentage of expected average salary. I think that would provide some downwards pressure on some of these outrageous tuitions. Let the student/family pay cash above that or let the private sector fill in for the difference if the private sector feels like the risk is worth the reward.

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        • #64


          Stop providing federal loans for shady for-profit schools.
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          I agree with the sentiment.  Though non-profit/public/private university's should also be included in this statement IMO as these schools also have more than their share of ineffective degree programs from a cost vs. salary range standpoint.

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          • #65
            I cringe a little bit when I consider the value a well rounded college education adds to our society. Creativity, arts, literature, education and social sciences add a texture not found in what I call “hardcore studies or skills paths”. Liberal arts certainly don’t command high salaries and companies don’t value such majors.
            Vocational oriented education paths get employment offers but I see a lot of advantages to being “educated” in other areas. How much is it worth? Can’t say.

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            • #66
              I think people think liberals arts adds a lot more to our culture than it really does.

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              • #67
                I wish I took more liberal arts classes. But u was too busy taking organic and biochem. Volunteering at the hospital and EMS. Working part time. Being a teacher's assistant. Maintaining a 3.9 GPA so I can get into med school. And I still think undergrad was a joke compared to everything since. My classmates who did major in the liberal arts usually did just that. Took the minimum credit a semester and never understood why I had to leave the parties early. That is the vast majority in my opinion.
                I did have one friend who worked his rear off and now has his PhD in history and economics and is a full professor at a good University.
                I think the success rate is just as low for the liberal arts majors as it is for the pre med students.

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                • #68
                  Don't major in a hobby.

                  It's fine if you're a surgeon and an accomplished painter or pianist.  Don't be a starving artist for odds as long as going pro in the NBA or NFL.

                  If you can weld and you also like to do welded sculpture, you have both a trade to fall back upon and a fair chance to pursue your artistic dreams.

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                  • #69




                    I think people think liberals arts adds a lot more to our culture than it really does.
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                    I would modify this say liberal arts education and then agree with you.

                    The promise of a liberal arts education is the creation of well-rounded critical thinkers. We don't seem overly burdened with those at the moment despite decades of this promise in higher education.

                    The most hilarious iteration of this particular debate was the minor kerfluffle when a few people got their feelings hurt and said that STEM needed to be changed to STEAM to include the arts -- which is like adding a slab of raw bleeding veal to a vegan salad.

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                    • #70




                      Don’t major in a hobby.

                      It’s fine if you’re a surgeon and an accomplished painter or pianist.  Don’t be a starving artist for odds as long as going pro in the NBA or NFL.

                      If you can weld and you also like to do welded sculpture, you have both a trade to fall back upon and a fair chance to pursue your artistic dreams.


                       

                      In "Artists in Time's of War" Howard Zinn asserts that throughout history the demise of every great nation was preceded by a devaluing of the arts. Once seen as essential to the development of the nation's culture, artists are seen as silly, trifling.

                      Inconceivable that some wittingly go into a low paying field. As if the market doesn't already weed out enough of them. Now you say if it's a low paying field its only use is as a hobby!

                      This is the kind of sentiment you will only ever find on an anonymous forum.

                       

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                      • #71




                        This is the kind of sentiment you will only ever find on an anonymous forum.
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                        Not really. I've had these discussions plenty in person.

                         

                        Lot of factors at play, but it's hard for me to not roll my eyes at some of the liberal arts grads who want their high loans forgiven when they bit off more than they could chew. Schools charge way too much, government keeps loaning more, kids don't fully understand what they're getting into, etc.

                         

                         

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                        • #72




                          In “Artists in Time’s of War” Howard Zinn asserts that throughout history the demise of every great nation was preceded by a devaluing of the arts. Once seen as essential to the development of the nation’s culture, artists are seen as silly, trifling.
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                          Are you seriously quoting Howard Zinn to add credibility to an economic argument?

                          Look, people are more than welcome to pursue whatever lawful career they want.  However, you give up your right to complain about being underpaid and overloaded with school debt if you can't take five minutes to look up your employment prospects before picking a major.  I'm amazed by how many people commit to four years of study (or more) without spending so much as one day shadowing someone who works in that field.

                          It helps to know that law has a bimodal salary distribution.  It helps to know that orthopedic surgeons make more than public health docs when you're deciding how much time and effort to put into studying for Step 1.

                          Very few high school football and basketball players get full rides at Division 1 schools.  A tiny percent of Division 1 players get drafted into the majors.  Few of those new professional players will still be playing 5+ years out of college.  Relatively few professional ballers will be solvent ten years after their first day in the league.  Guess what, the odds of making big money (or even middle class money) working as a professional artist or musician are similar to the pro sports odds, with arguably lower potential upside.  Los Angeles is full of beautiful, talented waiters and waitresses "pursuing their dreams".  It may not help to add $200K in college loan debt on top of that.

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                          • #73


                            In “Artists in Time’s of War” Howard Zinn asserts that throughout history the demise of every great nation was preceded by a devaluing of the arts. Once seen as essential to the development of the nation’s culture, artists are seen as silly, trifling. Inconceivable that some wittingly go into a low paying field. As if the market doesn’t already weed out enough of them. Now you say if it’s a low paying field its only use is as a hobby! This is the kind of sentiment you will only ever find on an anonymous forum.
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                            I think you took what @Hank was saying out of context but I agree with his/her sentiments 100%.

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                            • #74
                              The great thing about managing finances poorly during residency is that you eliminate the possibility of PSLF...

                              Did anyone listen to the most recent (like yesterday or today's) Freakonomics podcast about student loan debt. It has the president of Purdue University who is trying to stall the rise of tuition. It also talks about some of the potential solutions (a payback of tuition to the university itself as a percentage of salary based on field entered) and some failed solutions (Rhode Island, Australia).

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                              • #75


                                Inconceivable that some wittingly go into a low paying field. As if the market doesn’t already weed out enough of them. Now you say if it’s a low paying field its only use is as a hobby!
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                                Majoring in Art is always and option. Just be aware that the gorgeous jewelry and wall hanging art pieces you create can prepare you for certification as a high school art teacher.

                                A major in history from State U can qualify you for a mgr trainee job at Jack in a Box. Of course with hard work they might pay for your Stanford MBA and you can become Sr VP and make gobs of money with leveraged buyouts and going back public.

                                A major in education can be a great love of classical music can lead to being a farm housewife too.

                                A major in cell biology can make a good foundation for becoming an orthopod.

                                Each has a different life. Choosing a low paying field will greatly limit your options for your lifestyle. A low paying field can make things difficult and miserable.

                                Neither good nor bad, just the fact. No major is certain in financial terms, but it limits options normally.

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