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  • Just venting here: I saw my wealthiest friend yesterday. I don’t know exactly but I think he’s worth somewhere north of half a billion. He was disgusted with the tax cut he would be getting, saying he doesn’t need it and everyone else will pay the price for it. I know I’m stating the obvious, but while it’s great to have a secure and relatively lucrative career. it seems in many ways the deck is stacked against the hard-working high-earning wage earner. The fairness issue relative to others is hard to stomach. The loss of the self-employed health insurance premium deduction galls me because employed people receive this benefit automatically. It goes without saying that it would be even worse to be a hard-working low-earning wage earning. I’ve been very aggravated lately.  ????
    Click to expand...


    Tell your friend he’s welcome to write a check for any extra tax he wants to pay.  I’m serious.  I always laugh when I hear someone make complaints like that....because they’re utter nonsense.  I guarantee you the IRS accepts such donations.  And there’s no law that requires a filer to utilize every credit, deduction, and capital loss offset that they’re entitled to.  In sum, anyone who wants to pay extra tax is perfectly able to do so.

    That’s how you know your friend is full of bull.  Talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk.  If he’s opposed to the proposal, it’s not really because he’s mad he “wouldn’t pay enough”.  That little problem is easily fixed.

    Besides I find it hard to believe that a guy worth over $500m doesn’t get the vast majority of his yearly income from capital gains, not salary, and cap gains rates aren’t expected to change.

    Comment






    • Lots of posts on this thread with lots of tangents.  Someone posted that dividends and cap gains should be taxed at your income tax rate.  Crazy.  What do you think would happen to the stock market if such a bill passed.  Hello Crixus.
      Click to expand...


      Yep, that’s an utterly insane idea (“equalizing tax rates for earned income and cap gains”).  The top earned income rate is already roughly 40%.  If you made the top cap gain the same, you’d tax gains on the remaining 60% at another 40%!!!  And that calculation doesn’t even include the effect of inflation or the risk involved.  If you’d like to choke off investment, and therefore growth, that’s a great way to do it!

      Thats why it’s so foolhardy and dangerous to make tax policy based on a desire to punish, feed class jealousy, or make some anomalous example “pay more”.  You may not like that a man of vast wealth like Warren Buffett pays only 20% on his income (because it’s all from long term cap gains) but that’s not a reason to double the tax rate on investment, hurting the whole economy.  That’s stupid, petty, and frankly born of childish envy....Obama repeatedly called for something similar and cited Buffett as justification so this isn’t just a theoretical concern.

      Anyone know how the stupid AMT came about?  It was passed in the early 70s due to dumb outrage over a news report that there was a tiny few (literally like 120 or so) high-income people the prior year who legally paid no federal income tax due to credits, deduction, and income from tax-free muni bonds.  So, the entire tax policy of the United States was changed and made more complex and arcane because of foolish righteous anger over a few rare, anomalous tax returns.

      NOT SMART

       

      Comment









      • Just venting here: I saw my wealthiest friend yesterday. I don’t know exactly but I think he’s worth somewhere north of half a billion. He was disgusted with the tax cut he would be getting, saying he doesn’t need it and everyone else will pay the price for it. I know I’m stating the obvious, but while it’s great to have a secure and relatively lucrative career. it seems in many ways the deck is stacked against the hard-working high-earning wage earner. The fairness issue relative to others is hard to stomach. The loss of the self-employed health insurance premium deduction galls me because employed people receive this benefit automatically. It goes without saying that it would be even worse to be a hard-working low-earning wage earning. I’ve been very aggravated lately.  ????
        Click to expand…


        Tell your friend he’s welcome to write a check for any extra tax he wants to pay.  I’m serious.  I always laugh when I hear someone make complaints like that….because they’re utter nonsense.  I guarantee you the IRS accepts such donations.  And there’s no law that requires a filer to utilize every credit, deduction, and capital loss offset that they’re entitled to.  In sum, anyone who wants to pay extra tax is perfectly able to do so.

        That’s how you know your friend is full of bull.  Talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk.  If he’s opposed to the proposal, it’s not really because he’s mad he “wouldn’t pay enough”.  That little problem is easily fixed.

        Besides I find it hard to believe that a guy worth over $500m doesn’t get the vast majority of his yearly income from capital gains, not salary, and cap gains rates aren’t expected to change.
        Click to expand...


        Whoa! No one needs to donate to the IRS. Lets set up a fund of willing recipients right here.

        Comment









        • Just venting here: I saw my wealthiest friend yesterday. I don’t know exactly but I think he’s worth somewhere north of half a billion. He was disgusted with the tax cut he would be getting, saying he doesn’t need it and everyone else will pay the price for it. I know I’m stating the obvious, but while it’s great to have a secure and relatively lucrative career. it seems in many ways the deck is stacked against the hard-working high-earning wage earner. The fairness issue relative to others is hard to stomach. The loss of the self-employed health insurance premium deduction galls me because employed people receive this benefit automatically. It goes without saying that it would be even worse to be a hard-working low-earning wage earning. I’ve been very aggravated lately.  ????
          Click to expand…


          Tell your friend he’s welcome to write a check for any extra tax he wants to pay.  I’m serious.  I always laugh when I hear someone make complaints like that….because they’re utter nonsense.  I guarantee you the IRS accepts such donations.  And there’s no law that requires a filer to utilize every credit, deduction, and capital loss offset that they’re entitled to.  In sum, anyone who wants to pay extra tax is perfectly able to do so.

          That’s how you know your friend is full of bull.  Talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk.  If he’s opposed to the proposal, it’s not really because he’s mad he “wouldn’t pay enough”.  That little problem is easily fixed.

          Besides I find it hard to believe that a guy worth over $500m doesn’t get the vast majority of his yearly income from capital gains, not salary, and cap gains rates aren’t expected to change.
          Click to expand...


          No, he’s the CEO and founder of a group of public companies, and he stands to benefit from the reduction in the corporate tax rate.

          And it’s not about whether or not to accept the windfall. He just thinks it’s poor public policy. It’s as Warren Buffett is saying: his investors will benefit, but it’s not good for the country. Personally I suspect it’s not good for me either.
          My Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFF...MwBiAAKd5N8qPg

          Comment












          • Just venting here: I saw my wealthiest friend yesterday. I don’t know exactly but I think he’s worth somewhere north of half a billion. He was disgusted with the tax cut he would be getting, saying he doesn’t need it and everyone else will pay the price for it. I know I’m stating the obvious, but while it’s great to have a secure and relatively lucrative career. it seems in many ways the deck is stacked against the hard-working high-earning wage earner. The fairness issue relative to others is hard to stomach. The loss of the self-employed health insurance premium deduction galls me because employed people receive this benefit automatically. It goes without saying that it would be even worse to be a hard-working low-earning wage earning. I’ve been very aggravated lately.  ????
            Click to expand…


            Tell your friend he’s welcome to write a check for any extra tax he wants to pay.  I’m serious.  I always laugh when I hear someone make complaints like that….because they’re utter nonsense.  I guarantee you the IRS accepts such donations.  And there’s no law that requires a filer to utilize every credit, deduction, and capital loss offset that they’re entitled to.  In sum, anyone who wants to pay extra tax is perfectly able to do so.

            That’s how you know your friend is full of bull.  Talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk.  If he’s opposed to the proposal, it’s not really because he’s mad he “wouldn’t pay enough”.  That little problem is easily fixed.

            Besides I find it hard to believe that a guy worth over $500m doesn’t get the vast majority of his yearly income from capital gains, not salary, and cap gains rates aren’t expected to change.
            Click to expand…


            No, he’s the CEO and founder of a group of public companies, and he stands to benefit from the reduction in the corporate tax rate.

            And it’s not about whether or not to accept the windfall. He just thinks it’s poor public policy. It’s as Warren Buffett is saying: his investors will benefit, but it’s not good for the country. Personally I suspect it’s not good for me either.
            Click to expand...


            Benefit as a shareholder/investor in these companies?  Isn’t that we want?  Don’t we want American companies to be successful and have greater after-tax profits to thereby be able to expand further and pay more dividends?  I’m not really seeeing the problem here.

            Echoing what I said earlier, I really don’t think we should judge the merits of public policy based on how it affects a few CEOs.  The US corporate tax rate is among the highest in the developed world.  It is widely cited as a key hindering factor in the relative decline in competiveness of American companies.  Heck even Obama, whom no one would confuse for a low-tax free marketeer, acknowledged it was too high on several occasions.

            Comment


            • The idea that a tax cut will make US companies more successful and thereby have broad and wonderful benefits throughout the economy is not a law of nature. It’s in large part ideology. There are economists on all sides of this, including many who point out that the 1950s and 60s were years of great US growth and highest tax rates. No, I don’t think we ought to base tax policy on the hope that this economic argument turns out to be true. We are not talking about equations in physics.
              My Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFF...MwBiAAKd5N8qPg

              Comment






              • The idea that a tax cut will make US companies more successful and thereby have broad and wonderful benefits throughout the economy is not a law of nature. It’s in large part ideology. There are economists on all sides of this, including many who point out that the 1950s and 60s were years of great US growth and highest tax rates. No, I don’t think we ought to base tax policy on the hope that this economic argument turns out to be true. We are not talking about equations in physics.
                Click to expand...


                Again, tell that the political party that has for decades produced tax plans where they erase revenue cuts by projecting explosive economic growth that has never happened in response to a tax cut.

                We're actually full circle now with Tea Party republicans like Mark Meadows saying publicly that it's ok to raise the debt/deficit as long as they can cut taxes on the wealthy. What a world.

                Comment












                • Just venting here: I saw my wealthiest friend yesterday. I don’t know exactly but I think he’s worth somewhere north of half a billion. He was disgusted with the tax cut he would be getting, saying he doesn’t need it and everyone else will pay the price for it. I know I’m stating the obvious, but while it’s great to have a secure and relatively lucrative career. it seems in many ways the deck is stacked against the hard-working high-earning wage earner. The fairness issue relative to others is hard to stomach. The loss of the self-employed health insurance premium deduction galls me because employed people receive this benefit automatically. It goes without saying that it would be even worse to be a hard-working low-earning wage earning. I’ve been very aggravated lately.  ????
                  Click to expand…


                  Tell your friend he’s welcome to write a check for any extra tax he wants to pay.  I’m serious.  I always laugh when I hear someone make complaints like that….because they’re utter nonsense.  I guarantee you the IRS accepts such donations.  And there’s no law that requires a filer to utilize every credit, deduction, and capital loss offset that they’re entitled to.  In sum, anyone who wants to pay extra tax is perfectly able to do so.

                  That’s how you know your friend is full of bull.  Talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk.  If he’s opposed to the proposal, it’s not really because he’s mad he “wouldn’t pay enough”.  That little problem is easily fixed.

                  Besides I find it hard to believe that a guy worth over $500m doesn’t get the vast majority of his yearly income from capital gains, not salary, and cap gains rates aren’t expected to change.
                  Click to expand…


                  Whoa! No one needs to donate to the IRS. Lets set up a fund of willing recipients right here.
                  Click to expand...


                  Yeah, sign me up.  I won't even b!tch about the tax rate.

                  Comment






                  • LThe idea that a tax cut will make US companies more successful and thereby have broad and wonderful benefits throughout the economy is not a law of nature. It’s in large part ideology. There are economists on all sides of this, including many who point out that the 1950s and 60s were years of great US growth and highest tax rates. No, I don’t think we ought to base tax policy on the hope that this economic argument turns out to be true. We are not talking about equations in physics.
                    Click to expand...


                    Yeah the postwar growth period of the late-40s thru mid-60s is commonly cited to justify higher taxes, tariffs, and private sector unionization but we all know that correlation isn’t causation.  Those folks conveniently ignore the fact that every other major industrialized nation in world was quite literally bombed to bits and bankrupted by WW2.  The US was the only one whose industrial and transportation infrastructure wasn’t destroyed.  Germany, Japan, and Russia lost an entire generation of young men (labor) dead on the battlefield.  The “competition” for American manufacturing was pretty much annihilated so it’s not surprising the US dominated at the time no matter what.

                    That world is long gone and business is more inter-connected across borders than ever.  This isn’t 1958 when GM could pay big pensions, high taxes, and faced no plausible foreign competition.

                    Comment


                    • That makes my point. This is a matter of argumentation, of debate. Reasonable people differ. No one actually knows “the truth”. To me the wisest course is to have a healthy skepticism about these arguments and the economic reality. Frankly, I don’t trust the motives and biases of  our elected representatives. Wish it were not the case.
                      My Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFF...MwBiAAKd5N8qPg

                      Comment


                      • I  will not personally benefit from a reduction in corporate tax directly.  I do not own and am not employed by a corporation.  I do however own a fair amount of stock.  It seems obvious to me that if us corporations pay less in taxes they have money to build more plants, hire more people, pay more benefits etc.  I see increasing productivity and higher stock prices with this which is good for everybody.

                        Comment






                        • I  will not personally benefit from a reduction in corporate tax directly.  I do not own and am not employed by a corporation.  I do however own a fair amount of stock.  It seems obvious to me that if us corporations pay less in taxes they have money to build more plants, hire more people, pay more benefits etc.  I see increasing productivity and higher stock prices with this which is good for everybody.
                          Click to expand...


                          the Rs have acknowledged the hoped for increase in economic growth under this plan will pay for, at most, $500 billion of the $1.5 trillion accrued debt.

                          Comment






                          • I  will not personally benefit from a reduction in corporate tax directly.  I do not own and am not employed by a corporation.  I do however own a fair amount of stock.  It seems obvious to me that if us corporations pay less in taxes they have money to build more plants, hire more people, pay more benefits etc.  I see increasing productivity and higher stock prices with this which is good for everybody.
                            Click to expand...


                            Everyone who owns stocks, which is around 50ish% of people. Its an effect, albeit indirect. Just depends on what the effect is supposed to be. I wont say they ever really made any spectacle of hiding that its corporate first, and this is wholly in line with that. However, as a much more direct 'middle class' money in your pocket plan that is often hitting the media rounds, it stinks. There are so many much more direct ways to do this. For one decreasing payroll taxes, an immediate, obvious in every check directly in the hands of workers.

                            Its all in how its done. I'd argue tax reform in general while nice, isnt actually a pressing concern and isnt holding the economy back in any obvious way. Healthcare, for sure, a clear and present danger.

                            Comment


                            • I don't care too much about these proposals since I don't know which ones will make it and which ones will not. So let us wait and see.

                              I have alo lived through presidents that have increased taxes, decreased them and those that increased while stating "read my lips, no new taxes". Through all of it I have saved and lived below my means. And in the end it all evens out and life still goes on. All these acrimonious exchanges here does not matter if one sticks to the core investing and lifestyle philosophy.

                              Comment















                              • Just venting here: I saw my wealthiest friend yesterday. I don’t know exactly but I think he’s worth somewhere north of half a billion. He was disgusted with the tax cut he would be getting, saying he doesn’t need it and everyone else will pay the price for it. I know I’m stating the obvious, but while it’s great to have a secure and relatively lucrative career. it seems in many ways the deck is stacked against the hard-working high-earning wage earner. The fairness issue relative to others is hard to stomach. The loss of the self-employed health insurance premium deduction galls me because employed people receive this benefit automatically. It goes without saying that it would be even worse to be a hard-working low-earning wage earning. I’ve been very aggravated lately.  ????
                                Click to expand…


                                Tell your friend he’s welcome to write a check for any extra tax he wants to pay.  I’m serious.  I always laugh when I hear someone make complaints like that….because they’re utter nonsense.  I guarantee you the IRS accepts such donations.  And there’s no law that requires a filer to utilize every credit, deduction, and capital loss offset that they’re entitled to.  In sum, anyone who wants to pay extra tax is perfectly able to do so.

                                That’s how you know your friend is full of bull.  Talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk.  If he’s opposed to the proposal, it’s not really because he’s mad he “wouldn’t pay enough”.  That little problem is easily fixed.

                                Besides I find it hard to believe that a guy worth over $500m doesn’t get the vast majority of his yearly income from capital gains, not salary, and cap gains rates aren’t expected to change.
                                Click to expand…


                                No, he’s the CEO and founder of a group of public companies, and he stands to benefit from the reduction in the corporate tax rate.

                                And it’s not about whether or not to accept the windfall. He just thinks it’s poor public policy. It’s as Warren Buffett is saying: his investors will benefit, but it’s not good for the country. Personally I suspect it’s not good for me either.
                                Click to expand…


                                Benefit as a shareholder/investor in these companies?  Isn’t that we want?  Don’t we want American companies to be successful and have greater after-tax profits to thereby be able to expand further and pay more dividends?  I’m not really seeeing the problem here.

                                Echoing what I said earlier, I really don’t think we should judge the merits of public policy based on how it affects a few CEOs.  The US corporate tax rate is among the highest in the developed world.  It is widely cited as a key hindering factor in the relative decline in competiveness of American companies.  Heck even Obama, whom no one would confuse for a low-tax free marketeer, acknowledged it was too high on several occasions.
                                Click to expand...


                                American companies are very successful and generally sitting on hoards of cash, or have so much cash readily available they burn it as if it is their primary job (Tesla, lol).

                                Our nominal rates are high, but effective for the S/P is about 24%, not terrible. Just because its widely cited does not make it true. The big discrepancy in top line and effective makes it a very useful propaganda piece though.

                                Problem lies in the loopholes and other junk that create incentives for accounting gimmicks and relocations just to play taxes. If the answer is a lower nominal, fine, etc...but a top line reduction isnt whats 'needed'. Whats needed is an update of existing laws, antitrust/privacy, and global competition focus. No matter what you set US rates to, Ireland or where ever can always undercut you. You need to make the cost of leaving the US too great, and that can be done by increasing surcharges or penalties on structures to evade taxes like inversions, etc...Not saying Im for all those things just the toolbox is large. We should be promoting innovation and growth, not tax strategies.

                                In reality there is a paucity of investable ideas out there, companies have been complaining about it for a long time.

                                 

                                Comment

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