Supreme Court & Student Loans

[CordMcNally]

If you work for a defense contractor or even in the armed forces directly, military spending benefits you more than others.

I can see that we’re going to go in circles here.

[AR]

I can see that we’re going to go in circles here.

There's nothing circular about it. If you work for a defense contractor, you benefit more from military spending that someone who doesn't. Same if you are employed by the military.

That should be neither difficult to understand nor circular in any way. Feel free to do with this revelation what you like.

[Tangler]

Glad I stayed out of this one. Even just reading it is making me have N/V. AR doing the AR thing, people with loans trying to act like this is money well spent, the same argument that gov spending is so outrageous anyway, so why not blow it on me? etc.

When someone brings up a topic like this, honestly, what are they looking for in terms of info? What good does any of this do? What is the point of the original survey.....seriously.....what is to be gained?

Ok, College football looks interesting tonight. GA looks unstoppable. Two losses in the top 4! Ohio state should be in. What about TCU???!!!!!

[Kamban]

hopefully this goes through and gives struggling young people much needed relief.

far too much legislation and government action is, on some level, a transfer of wealth from the young to the old. hopefully this is the rare government action that does the opposite.

Might I suggest that while we are at it, we also forgive all mortgages of young people who have bought homes beyond their means and now don't have jobs or sufficient income to pay for it. It will be a nice transfer of wealth too.

I am sure I can think of a few more ways of transferring wealth.

[AR]

Might I suggest that while we are at it, we also forgive all mortgages of young people who have bought homes beyond their means and now don't have jobs or sufficient income to pay for it. It will be a nice transfer of wealth too.

Mortgages are a bit different because they have several built in remedies. If you can't pay, then the bank can foreclose on the house and beyond that you can discharge the debt in bankruptcy. Comparing mortgages to student loans isn't exactly a perfect comparison.

[Tim]

Might I suggest that while we are at it, we also forgive all mortgages of young people who have bought homes beyond their means and now don't have jobs or sufficient income to pay for it. It will be a nice transfer of wealth too.

I am sure I can think of a few more ways of transferring wealth.

I prefer old fashioned way, smoke filled back rooms and good old fashioned deal making real vulgarity.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/the-most-vulgar-american-president-ever-it-sure-as-isnt-donald-trump/wcm/0f711ec3-0329-447d-b179-58694677606a/amp/

They sure don’t make old farts they way they used to. Or maybe they do.

[Kamban]

Mortgages are a bit different because they have several built in remedies. If you can't pay, then the bank can foreclose on the house and beyond that you can discharge the debt in bankruptcy. Comparing mortgages to student loans isn't exactly a perfect comparison.

I look at it this way. No one put a gun to one's head to take a student loan. You took it and knew the terms. But you did a useless degree because you wanted to follow your heart and not have no employable skills. You want the loan forgiven.

You take out a mortgage. You understood the terms and now you can't pay for it. Why should the bank take a loss. Let the Fed Government give out loan forgiveness so that they can keep their houses and not be thrown out in the street.

Also this gives the chance for the non-college working young people to get their share of the pot of gold. Why should they subsidize the college educated. I am all for handing out money freely, contracts be da**ed.

[StarTrekDoc]

Might I suggest that while we are at it, we also forgive all mortgages of young people who have bought homes beyond their means and now don't have jobs or sufficient income to pay for it. It will be a nice transfer of wealth too.

I am sure I can think of a few more ways of transferring wealth.

Oh, we already did that one in 2007.

[AR]

I look at it this way. No one put a gun to one's head to take a student loan. You took it and knew the terms. But you did a useless degree because you wanted to follow your heart and not have no employable skills. You want the loan forgiven.

Even you must realize that while that happens often, that's not always the case.

You take out a mortgage. You understood the terms and now you can't pay for it. Why should the bank take a loss.

Because they also understood the terms and knew that defaulting and whatever follows that was a possible consequence.

Let the Fed Government give out loan forgiveness so that they can keep their houses and not be thrown out in the street.

Also this gives the chance for the non-college working young people to get their share of the pot of gold. Why should they subsidize the college educated. I am all for handing out money freely, contracts be da**ed.

I assume there is some sarcasm here, but I'm not really sure what your point is. Nor am I sure that you understand what mine was. It was simply that mortgage loans and student loans have important differences. That is all. Nothing more than that. Of course, they do have similarities as well and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Among other things they are both loans which have certain terms that are specified at the outset.

[Tangler]

https://ecf.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/22/11/223179P.pdf

The argument about “standing” is basically over.
THAT is not being appealed. The states have standing.
Dept of Ed has authority to pause. That can be ended by Congress.
The authority for forgiveness was based on the Hero’s act. The Supreme Court will decide if the national emergency still exists. Not, CDC or the President. If they find it exists, loan forgiveness allowed. If not, forgiveness needs to go through Congress.
Pretty simple from the beginning. There are so many examples of it doesn’t exist by the executive branch, it is going to be extremely difficult to argue the “emergency exists only for student loans.
The conclusion would be, they over stepped their authority.
I will leave to you why they would do this.

This is basically it in a nutshell.
Do we “still” have a covid emergency?
If not, then the executive branch cannot use this as an excuse to hand out money without congressional approval.
Why would he want to hand out money without oversight?
Why he wants this is irrelevant to the supreme court IMO.

Here are some possible reasons why:
1. Buy votes (my belief)?
2. Help struggling students suffering from covid (what he sometimes says)?
3.Help you with your “unfair” loan burden that you signed up for (your wish)(what you will also hear him say sometimes when talking to students).

(even if it is a little of all 3, should we allow him to do this for whatever he wants without congressional approval? )

Kamban is also correct. The mortgage analogy is spot on. Why not help with mortgage forgiveness? Why not free handouts for everyone? Maybe they can pay for my new truck? Fishing boat? Vacation home? Andrew Yang argues for Universal basic income of 1000 per month? why not 10,000 per month?

At some point any logical tax-payer has to ask the question: “what is excessive spending and waste and what are the consequences ?“

That question is important.

Consequences (ex. inflation) are real and that is my concern.

This is not a great use of $ and it is not for a covid “emergency”.

[Tim]

I'd suspect most government spending could be painted as buying votes. When you spend money (or tax less for that matter), someone is going to benefit, and that person may be inclined to vote for those responsible.

I have no objection to government spending money for public benefit. I really like potholes fixed and good highways.
I do object to government spending directly to specific individuals for votes. Never voted that way and never will.
That to me is bribery. More so than “do me a favor”. I do favors all the time and accept favors.

https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/federal-spending/

[Turf Doc]

This is basically it in a nutshell.
Do we “still” have a covid emergency?
If not, then the executive branch cannot use this as an excuse to hand out money without congressional approval.
Why would he want to hand out money without oversight?
Why he wants this is irrelevant to the supreme court IMO.

Here are some possible reasons why:
1. Buy votes (my belief)?
2. Help struggling students suffering from covid (what he sometimes says)?
3.Help you with your “unfair” loan burden that you signed up for (your wish)(what you will also hear him say sometimes when talking to students).

(even if it is a little of all 3, should we allow him to do this for whatever he wants without congressional approval? )

Kamban is also correct. The mortgage analogy is spot on. Why not help with mortgage forgiveness? Why not free handouts for everyone? Maybe they can pay for my new truck? Fishing boat? Vacation home? Andrew Yang argues for Universal basic income of 1000 per month? why not 10,000 per month?

At some point any logical tax-payer has to ask the question: “what is excessive spending and waste and what are the consequences ?“

That question is important.

Consequences (ex. inflation) are real and that is my concern.

This is not a great use of $ and it is not for a covid “emergency”.

I really don’t think the mortgage analogy is spot on at all. If there were any limits on what amount of loans you could take for a certain degree, you could go bankrupt and discharge your debt, or you could “sell” your degree back then it would be much more appropriate. Just the first 2 would be reasonable of course. The truck or boat comparisons obviously make no sense since those are luxury goods that people did not buy in order to get ahead in life and they could simply sell those and/or go bankrupt. Student loans are unique in that if you make a mistake, without PSLF of course, you’re basically screwed.

even doctors/dentists can make really bad decisions with loans and basically rely on PSLF to have any chance of getting out from under it, and aren’t we supposed to be the smart ones who chose employable paths? Plenty of blame to go around but our society really screwed a lot of people by obsessing over college as the only way to get ahead with colleges gouging students and the gov greasing the transaction. Imo I’m just 10 years the whole narrative around college and student loans has changed for the better; I think gen z is learning from the millennials mistakes.

[Lordosis]

If mortgage loans do not compare what about credit card loans? Forgive everybody's cc debt. I am sure with a clean slate people in general will be more careful and not let it build back up...

[CordMcNally]

I really don’t think the mortgage analogy is spot on at all. If there were any limits on what amount of loans you could take for a certain degree, you could go bankrupt and discharge your debt, or you could “sell” your degree back then it would be much more appropriate. Just the first 2 would be reasonable of course. The truck or boat comparisons obviously make no sense since those are luxury goods that people did not buy in order to get ahead in life and they could simply sell those and/or go bankrupt. Student loans are unique in that if you make a mistake, without PSLF of course, you’re basically screwed.

Those useless degrees are like someone who overpaid for a house backing up to a busy street that is in disarray with multiple big issues. Hardly anybody wants to buy that house. Same thing with that useless degree. Even if you could sell your degree, what would the true market be for some of these useless degrees? They'd just sit on the market.

Also, there are people out there who do need a truck for their livelihood. They may not need a Ford F-250 Lariat but they do need and utilize a truck.

[Turf Doc]

Those useless degrees are like someone who overpaid for a house backing up to a busy street that is in disarray with multiple big issues. Hardly anybody wants to buy that house. Same thing with that useless degree. Even if you could sell your degree, what would the true market be for some of these useless degrees? They'd just sit on the market.

Also, there are people out there who do need a truck for their livelihood. They may not need a Ford F-250 Lariat but they do need and utilize a truck.

Except the bank wouldn’t let you take out that much money for a house (at a certain point), you could sell the house, or go bankrupt….. important differences I mentioned before….