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  • #31
    Originally posted by MPMD View Post
    fwiw as the resident lefty i find blanket student loan forgiveness to be very bad policy unless it's married to some kind of omnibus which would have to include a few things
    • massive, heavy-handed federal regulation of how higher ed sets prices and is paid for
    • some kind of look back so the person who just sent in a check for $100k to pay off their loans isn't just totally hosed, maybe some kind of tax credit moving forward
    it does strike me that there are 2 other valuable lessons to draw from this discussion
    • for a host of reasons the dems are looking at very bad electoral prospects, no one should be shocked by the kind of hail-mary policy making. i think we are way, way, way past pretending like anyone actually cares about spending at this point. and i mean anyone.
    • this is a really good example of an area where america has just stubbornly refused to solve a basic and immensely solvable problem, for all of the endless chest thumping we actually suck at doing simple things that we kind of have to do. we need doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers and architects. so how do we produce them? federally subsidized loans to private companies that function as a guild and charge usurious prices. we're #1!
    my man ENT Doc has really helped me appreciate that this is an issue where there is truly plenty of blame to go around.
    Like I said. everyone agrees it's bad policy.

    Everyone agrees the real problem is high tuition.

    The right tends to view it as bad policy to forgive student loans because it encourages underwater basketweaving degrees and gives aid to those who need it least (the most educated). But the left agrees it's bad policy because it doesn't fix the underlying problem. What are you going to do, do it all again every 5 years? Forgiveness without reform is silly.

    At least $10K clears the books of a lot of people, but it still has the above issues. It'll buy a few votes, but it'll lose some too. People who paid off their student loans or didn't go to college REALLY feel strongly about this. Just read the comments below some of the articles on it.
    Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

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    • #32
      75,000$ the total number of dollars at a minimum I’ve saved because of student loan pauses and receiving stimulus money. I transitioned to an attending 2020. This received every stimmy. I still will be on 2019 income on Paye given the fact I don’t have to recertify until 03/2024 (making the assumption pause will go until 12/2022

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      • #33
        Looks like the Biden admin is considering an income cap of somewhere in the $125k-$150k for single filers and $250k-$300k for those filing married. I feel like those are still too high but will cut out a lot of attendings.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by The White Coat Investor View Post

          Like I said. everyone agrees it's bad policy.

          Everyone agrees the real problem is high tuition.

          The right tends to view it as bad policy to forgive student loans because it encourages underwater basketweaving degrees and gives aid to those who need it least (the most educated). But the left agrees it's bad policy because it doesn't fix the underlying problem. What are you going to do, do it all again every 5 years? Forgiveness without reform is silly.

          At least $10K clears the books of a lot of people, but it still has the above issues. It'll buy a few votes, but it'll lose some too. People who paid off their student loans or didn't go to college REALLY feel strongly about this. Just read the comments below some of the articles on it.
          Bingo. Root cause = ridiculous tuition.

          Schools are actually incentivized to raise costs by forgiveness.

          Gov guarantees they (the school) get paid regardless.

          Also makes the student less concerned about borrowing and dependent on the government (not a good position).

          It was better and more simplistic when i finished in 2005.

          2005: Ton of loans consolidated at 6%, no pslf existed, one simple solution: work hard and pay off immediately.

          Felt good.

          Now these kids thinking they need pslf to win must be sick looking at proposals that exclude high income earners.

          https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-po...student-loans/
          Last edited by Tangler; 04-30-2022, 11:00 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by CordMcNally View Post
            Looks like the Biden admin is considering an income cap of somewhere in the $125k-$150k for single filers and $250k-$300k for those filing married. I feel like those are still too high but will cut out a lot of attendings.
            https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-po...student-loans/

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            • #36
              I think changes to IDR plans can benefit a lot of people, including physicians with high debt to income ratio. 20-25 years is a very long payment term. Should be something like 15 years, and afterwards any remaining balance should not be taxed. This will definitely help millions of people get out of debt, still have a good lifestyle during the repayment period, and still be fair.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by The White Coat Investor View Post

                Like I said. everyone agrees it's bad policy.

                Everyone agrees the real problem is high tuition.

                The right tends to view it as bad policy to forgive student loans because it encourages underwater basketweaving degrees and gives aid to those who need it least (the most educated). But the left agrees it's bad policy because it doesn't fix the underlying problem. What are you going to do, do it all again every 5 years? Forgiveness without reform is silly.

                At least $10K clears the books of a lot of people, but it still has the above issues. It'll buy a few votes, but it'll lose some too. People who paid off their student loans or didn't go to college REALLY feel strongly about this. Just read the comments below some of the articles on it.
                well, i wish everyone agreed it was bad policy. lots of people on my "team" sure don't.

                the right (as you say) has a point, we really shouldn't be subsidizing any kind of education people want to get.

                i am less convinced that it will lose votes but obviously neither of us know for sure. but it does strike me as a policy that is laser focused at helping a group of people who won't then turn out to help Biden in the midterms. elections are just about base right now so i don't really think individual policies make a difference. put another way if biden says tomorrow "i have met with senators Cruz, McConnell, and Thune and have become convinced that SLF is bad policy" will it gain him any crossover votes? ha ha ha ha.

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                • #38
                  He is buying votes for November 2022. There is no actual effort to fix anything in our high education system that has led to where we are today.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by resident_1 View Post
                    He is buying votes for November 2022. There is no actual effort to fix anything in our high education system that has led to where we are today.
                    IMO it's less about buying votes at this point and more about trying to get out of a "read my lips: no new taxes" situation

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by The White Coat Investor View Post

                      Everyone agrees the real problem is high tuition.

                      The right tends to view it as bad policy to forgive student loans because it encourages underwater basketweaving degrees and gives aid to those who need it least (the most educated). But the left agrees it's bad policy because it doesn't fix the underlying problem. What are you going to do, do it all again every 5 years? Forgiveness without reform is silly.
                      Why do we need a concrete solution to end this debate? Why can't we have small fixes until then?

                      The gov is perfectly okay with small fixes for small things like immigration reform, healthcare, infrastructure etc.
                      Examples are DACA without a robust immigration reform, smaller infrastructures without addressing an overhaul like dems wanted, dont get me started on medicare & medicaid band-aid patches to our broken healthcare system. No one expects (forseeable future) for the gov to get its sh*t together and have an overarching fix to these examples. We seem to be perfectly content with our representatives to have small patchwork...

                      Then why are you all expecting the root problem of higher tuition to be addressed and getting mad at small handouts to the broken higher education costs of student loans?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by drmka26 View Post

                        Why do we need a concrete solution to end this debate? Why can't we have small fixes until then?

                        The gov is perfectly okay with small fixes for small things like immigration reform, healthcare, infrastructure etc.
                        Examples are DACA without a robust immigration reform, smaller infrastructures without addressing an overhaul like dems wanted, dont get me started on medicare & medicaid band-aid patches to our broken healthcare system. No one expects (forseeable future) for the gov to get its sh*t together and have an overarching fix to these examples. We seem to be perfectly content with our representatives to have small patchwork...

                        Then why are you all expecting the root problem of higher tuition to be addressed and getting mad at small handouts to the broken higher education costs of student loans?
                        This isn’t a small fix. It’s throwing a small amount of gasoline on the fire.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Lithium View Post

                          This isn’t a small fix. It’s throwing a small amount of gasoline on the fire.
                          For many reasons, not the least of which is creating even more uncertainty about the future. Now nobody wants to refinance their loans, much less pay them off, because they're hoping they'll just go away. Even people with PLENTY of income to pay them off rapidly.
                          Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by MPMD View Post

                            well, i wish everyone agreed it was bad policy. lots of people on my "team" sure don't.

                            the right (as you say) has a point, we really shouldn't be subsidizing any kind of education people want to get.

                            i am less convinced that it will lose votes but obviously neither of us know for sure. but it does strike me as a policy that is laser focused at helping a group of people who won't then turn out to help Biden in the midterms. elections are just about base right now so i don't really think individual policies make a difference. put another way if biden says tomorrow "i have met with senators Cruz, McConnell, and Thune and have become convinced that SLF is bad policy" will it gain him any crossover votes? ha ha ha ha.
                            Actually, it all comes down to money , who spends it and who earns it.
                            I have no objection to loan forgiveness or wealth redistribution if ............pays for it." (fill in the blank). It is all a political battle. Class warfare, if you don't like the rules change them or ignore them. Anything for a few votes, it is about power. The US has avoided physical force for a long time.

                            Just take a look at Beijing look downs. Don't admit a brand of vaccine does not work, just lock in the population.
                            Biden does not give a crap about SLF or policy. Misinformation is the new choice. It is all about a few votes here and there.

                            Same is true of both parties in our two party system.

                            "well, i wish everyone agreed it was bad policy. lots of people on my "team" sure don't." The problem is, any issue can cause dissatisfaction and one issue becomes a straight ticket vote on all policies, with no real agreement. What is ironic, on many issues the "teams" have changed sides.

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                            • #44
                              Any thoughts on how this forgiveness would apply to Parent Plus Loans?

                              As soon as I finished residency I refinanced the parent plus loans my parents took out for my education. I paid them off right away along with the rest of my refinanced loans.

                              I have been looking to see if there has been any discussion from the Biden administration regarding these loans. I would be willing to bet there are many people out there who were like my parents who took out large student loans for their kids. I wonder in the case of parent plus loans if the parent would be seen as the borrower and get these loans forgiven. For example, if there was a student who has 10K in federal loans and their parent has 10K in Parent Plus Loans if both would be seen as separate and both get forgiven? So, people who would have had parent plus loans taken out would have a total of 20K forgiven. I know currently the 0% interest has applied to the parent plus loans as well. Regardless, the whole student loan issue is a mess. It's why I got out ASAP.

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                              • #45
                                Defund the ( humanities departments ) universities. ...a root cause soln.

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