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Trump 3 mo extension counts towards PSLF !

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  • East coast
    replied
    Originally posted by East coast View Post

    I appreciate you mentioning this, because I think it shows a huge disconnect between what is occurring in reality vs. the misconception. There's a ton that I think people could agree upon here - as BCBiker stated, more means testing or really a cap of some sort on how much can be forgiven in total makes a lot of sense to me. Frankly, there already is means testing - that's the whole point of Income Driven Repayments, though i'm sure there are sensible tweaks to be made.

    But on the misconception vs. reality - the average forgiveness is $59k (the data is published each month for PSLF and TEPSLF). No doubt someone who fits your statement exists - social worker making $40k with $200k, but that's along the same lines of ENT's mythical woman who is having a baby just for the welfare check (for all the frank child rearing discussion done on this board, you guys have me convinced that's not going to come out in the mother's favor! :-) But what do I know). It's just not what's happening on the ground.

    Similarly on the doctor front - average debt for school is in the $200-250k range last I've seen. I've done hundreds of "should I do PSLF or not" calculations of others' situations on just on this board, much less other boards, and the vast vast majority fall into a similar situation as my family situation. We will essentially pay most of the original principal back and the forgiveness is going to be of the remaining interest. What PSLF ends up functioning as for the majority of Docs out there making 200k+ (upper range of income doesn't matter since many payments get capped at 10 yr standard), is a 0% or -1,2,3% loan nominally. We'll end up paying in the 150k-200k range in payments over the 10 yrs which matches the original principal taken out. Admittedly the amount put in by us is going down by the day with the Cares Act/new EO (BTW I still don't quite understand how a president has the power to do such a thing, but again, what do i know - maybe one of you should sue the Trump administration and over turn it on constitutional grounds?).

    The immoral stuff is garbage. That's what has ignited the sensitivity surrounding this topic for me and it's existed on this board for years. I even start most of my comments on those student loan topics with a disclaimer that there is significant hostility to the freshly graduated folks that come here starting in March-June every year to ask the same questions about loans year after year like clockwork. Keep the political comments in the political discussions/lounge and leave the 'student loan management' board for those seeking education.
    PSA for those out there with misconceptions on how PSLF really is functioning, here is a direct quote from the founder of this website this week: "Most going for PSLF will end up getting forgiven about what they owed originally. Then in those ten years, you cover all the interest. I think most people that go for public service loan forgiveness will find the numbers to be similar if they have typical doctor incomes and typical doctor debts"

    Leave a comment:


  • BCBiker
    replied
    Originally posted by Anne View Post

    Didn’t you say earlier in this thread that you made low 7 figures in 2020? Seems like a good enough “consolation prize” for the “burden” of willingly taking on 300k of educational debt. Come on.
    That wasn't in medicine. lol!

    Leave a comment:


  • East coast
    replied
    Originally posted by Lordosis View Post

    300k for a job that will pay you 300k a year for your 30 year career is not too bad.

    200k for a social worker who makes 40k needs help.

    If people cannot see the difference I just give up.
    I appreciate you mentioning this, because I think it shows a huge disconnect between what is occurring in reality vs. the misconception. There's a ton that I think people could agree upon here - as BCBiker stated, more means testing or really a cap of some sort on how much can be forgiven in total makes a lot of sense to me. Frankly, there already is means testing - that's the whole point of Income Driven Repayments, though i'm sure there are sensible tweaks to be made.

    But on the misconception vs. reality - the average forgiveness is $59k (the data is published each month for PSLF and TEPSLF). No doubt someone who fits your statement exists - social worker making $40k with $200k, but that's along the same lines of ENT's mythical woman who is having a baby just for the welfare check (for all the frank child rearing discussion done on this board, you guys have me convinced that's not going to come out in the mother's favor! :-) But what do I know). It's just not what's happening on the ground.

    Similarly on the doctor front - average debt for school is in the $200-250k range last I've seen. I've done hundreds of "should I do PSLF or not" calculations of others' situations on just on this board, much less other boards, and the vast vast majority fall into a similar situation as my family situation. We will essentially pay most of the original principal back and the forgiveness is going to be of the remaining interest. What PSLF ends up functioning as for the majority of Docs out there making 200k+ (upper range of income doesn't matter since many payments get capped at 10 yr standard), is a 0% or -1,2,3% loan nominally. We'll end up paying in the 150k-200k range in payments over the 10 yrs which matches the original principal taken out. Admittedly the amount put in by us is going down by the day with the Cares Act/new EO (BTW I still don't quite understand how a president has the power to do such a thing, but again, what do i know - maybe one of you should sue the Trump administration and over turn it on constitutional grounds?).

    The immoral stuff is garbage. That's what has ignited the sensitivity surrounding this topic for me and it's existed on this board for years. I even start most of my comments on those student loan topics with a disclaimer that there is significant hostility to the freshly graduated folks that come here starting in March-June every year to ask the same questions about loans year after year like clockwork. Keep the political comments in the political discussions/lounge and leave the 'student loan management' board for those seeking education.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anne
    replied
    Originally posted by BCBiker View Post

    Exactly. It is only a give away if it is to someone other than me. If my moral compass says that I only need $X and thus I pay every bit more I earn in taxes, does that mean that I can call everyone who pays only 30% of income immoral takers. ENT docs views are so bankrupt it is hardly worth reading them. The reason I asked how he paid for schools is that he cannot judge what it is like to graduate with $300K in debt and carrying that debt through training. I know that burden and getting some bit forgiven after 10 years is a modest consolation prize to be honest.
    Didn’t you say earlier in this thread that you made low 7 figures in 2020? Seems like a good enough “consolation prize” for the “burden” of willingly taking on 300k of educational debt. Come on.

    Leave a comment:


  • BCBiker
    replied
    Originally posted by Lordosis View Post

    300k for a job that will pay you 300k a year for your 30 year career is not too bad.

    200k for a social worker who makes 40k needs help.

    If people cannot see the difference I just give up.
    I am not against means testing PSLF. However, judging people's morals based on following a program that benefits them is akin to looking down on someone for not paying more taxes than owed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lordosis
    replied
    Originally posted by BCBiker View Post

    Exactly. It is only a give away if it is to someone other than me. If my moral compass says that I only need $X and thus I pay every bit more I earn in taxes, does that mean that I can call everyone who pays only 30% of income immoral takers. ENT docs views are so bankrupt it is hardly worth reading them. The reason I asked how he paid for schools is that he cannot judge what it is like to graduate with $300K in debt and carrying that debt through training. I know that burden and getting some bit forgiven after 10 years is a modest consolation prize to be honest.
    300k for a job that will pay you 300k a year for your 30 year career is not too bad.

    200k for a social worker who makes 40k needs help.

    If people cannot see the difference I just give up.

    Leave a comment:


  • BCBiker
    replied
    Originally posted by Tim View Post
    “My gripe on this is that we are over-paying the geezers in university admin (who contribute close to nothing) and passing those cost to the young and naive.”

    •I would bet the geezers disagree.
    •Your assumption of PSLF being based on success of funding education opportunities for disadvantaged might be a little optimistic. Failure means simply one works for a non profit. Fund raising, janitor or whatever. Offering to all doesn’t necessarily mean an efficient process for overcoming the financial barriers. Not a criticism, just “automatic” creates waste that might be avoided.
    I basically agree. I actually think PSLF should be means tested but because it is not does not mean that those who benefit should waive their right to exercise it.

    I actually don't think that most Deans would argue that they don't deserve such a high salary for such little contribution. They may feel entitled to it but would not be able to rationally support it.

    Leave a comment:


  • BCBiker
    replied
    Originally posted by East coast View Post

    Dont worry, ENT never took a deduction in his/her life. Mortgage Interest? Nah. Deduction for child? No way, only welfare queens do that!
    Exactly. It is only a give away if it is to someone other than me. If my moral compass says that I only need $X and thus I pay every bit more I earn in taxes, does that mean that I can call everyone who pays only 30% of income immoral takers. ENT docs views are so bankrupt it is hardly worth reading them. The reason I asked how he paid for schools is that he cannot judge what it is like to graduate with $300K in debt and carrying that debt through training. I know that burden and getting some bit forgiven after 10 years is a modest consolation prize to be honest.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lordosis
    replied
    Originally posted by BE87 View Post
    I am pursuing PSLF and I don’t feel bad about it at all. The program will save me approx 150k when my 10 years is up. I work in a rural area and my patients are primarily society’s cast offs. Former drug users, destitute elderly, foster children, and people with no health insurance. The majority of my patients have Medicaid and Medicare. The amt of commercial insurance patients I see is very small. The private practice groups in town refuse to see them. The care they had been getting from APNs prior to my arrival was subpar. In my mind, if my training as a physician can prevent even 1 or 2 long hospitalizations per year then I am actually saving the government money.
    For every job like your there is ten jobs like mine. I work for a hospital and have a good number of disadvantaged patients but I am not serving the public good any more then the private practice down the street.

    People cannot be asked to police themselves and be expected to do the right thing. People will take advantage of a system until it costs too much then another layer of rules will have to be put in place to limit it again.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ekanive23
    replied
    Originally posted by ENT Doc View Post

    You are the perfect example of how a bad system creates bad incentives and produces entitled attitudes wanting others to pull your weight. And it’s not me paying your bill BTW. It’s your kids and their kids. And mine too.

    And those stimulus checks will have to be paid back on your tax return, assuming you make a reasonable doctor salary.
    The checks do not have to be paid back. Verified with accountant. I’ll be setting up my kids proper. They’ll do fine.

    Leave a comment:


  • BE87
    replied
    I am pursuing PSLF and I don’t feel bad about it at all. The program will save me approx 150k when my 10 years is up. I work in a rural area and my patients are primarily society’s cast offs. Former drug users, destitute elderly, foster children, and people with no health insurance. The majority of my patients have Medicaid and Medicare. The amt of commercial insurance patients I see is very small. The private practice groups in town refuse to see them. The care they had been getting from APNs prior to my arrival was subpar. In my mind, if my training as a physician can prevent even 1 or 2 long hospitalizations per year then I am actually saving the government money.

    Leave a comment:


  • East coast
    replied
    Originally posted by MPMD View Post

    as one of the token lefties on the forum i would make 2 points to you:

    1) don't fall over in shock that a forum for high-income doctors trying to save money leans right
    2) if anything the mods are allowing a bit more political talk than they did at one point

    expanding on point 1, if the slight conservative lean bothers you it's going to be tough to read here for very long. not every intellectual space can align perfectly with our chosen values.
    just to clarify, you more succinctly reiterated the same point I was making in response to another comment: who is surprised by the off topic remarks and the flavor of those comments.

    I hadn’t thought of my comments as left vs. right, but will concede that appearance upon reflection - had thought of it being much more generational.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tim
    replied
    Tax dollars aren’t earmarked for programs.
    •501c3 is a rather ridiculous designation as a qualifying employer. It is a legal designation for tax exempt status of that organization. No problem with tax exempt for the entity, but it doesn’t relate to the employees status.
    It in no way relates to the pay scale of the employees nor the benefits provided by location or need. My take was “public service” related to the benefits or location and often misses that target.
    • HCE is > $130k. The question is should the standard repayment be allowed to maximize the PSLF forgiveness of HCE . No question one with a large debt benefits from PSLF.
    • Regarding the question about changing the contract.With Government, happens all the time.
    New law and new guidelines and pay for “newly illegal damages”. It was “legal” at the time. The government decides if it is retroactive or prospective. No one says if it is fair. I doubt it, but a law could be passed with a clawback.
    • The average hospital employee probably makes about $60k. From their standpoint, loan forgiveness should probably be illegal.
    I don’t see a personal ethical problem with anyone relying and taking advantage of PSLF. Smart choices.
    •The problem is with the institution requirement and leveraged benefits the system allows the are funded and Bear no relation to location and need.



    Leave a comment:


  • ENT Doc
    replied
    Originally posted by MPMD View Post

    i am very respectful of your service and also of your opinion that PSLF isn't a good idea. the former is admirable and the latter is a perfectly reasonable position.

    but one thing that has become commonplace in the last few years is to cast policy disagreements as "X vs. the troops." This is not only a textbook false dichotomy (as you can see easily) it's also dangerous because it stokes rage where none really need exist.

    It's silly, intellectually lazy, and, quite frankly, given how I have come to know your grasp of these issues, it's beneath you.
    Appreciate your comments. To be clear it’s not a X vs troops. When it comes to debating or thinking about a policy I think it’s helpful to look at other known issues to see how they are thought of and see if the new standard applies. So look at things before PSLF. What was and remains a good litmus test for forgiving or paying off loans. Those situations were reserved for those who sacrificed for our country or who were willing to work in impoverished and/or remote areas. With that as the standard, now throw in PSLF. The current qualifications do not measure up to the old standards. And to equate the two in any way is disingenuous. That’s all I’m saying. It’s not a X vs troops. Just a way of thinking about PSLF compared to what I think was and should be the standard for forgiving loans.

    Leave a comment:


  • MPMD
    replied
    Originally posted by East coast View Post

    To paraphrase and recap a number of statements in the most active discussions on this board the past few months:

    - Media over blowing Coronavirus! My personal favs include complaints that AZ media was over hyping cases (not that the numbers/facts were incorrect, but that they wanted to get the governor at any chance!), followed by that state becoming an epicenter, as well as the person stating July 4th weekend death tolls [presumably] as evidence that we'd defeated this sucker! Followed by those totals quintupling for the last 8 weeks and still going strong. Another fav was the calling out of the fellow doctor on local TV news claiming there [i suppose] malicious descriptions about what their experience in the hospital had been and calling for punishment of said colleague.

    - Buffet should keep quiet about taxes! He doesn't really want his to go up - if he did he'd just pay now more out of personal virtue!

    - PSLF and the little runts taking all the money! I think there has been exactly one example of actual 'abuse' of the system that I can recall - that guy that took out 800k+ and went heli-skiing and all that jazz.

    - Darn cities being overrun by mobs. You folks living in them must really be out of your minds!

    - user calling someone a snowflake on page 1 of a thread....4 pages later calling someone out for using 'ok boomer'. the irony!

    Seems to be a lot of triggers and really does make sense why bogleheads keeps a tight handle on the types of topics/replies allowed. it is totally possible i have extreme recency bias, but having been on this board since the start, I do not recall many of these discussions going so far off track the first 3 yrs. All the while, here I am contributing to getting this topic way off track!! Now i'll go hide under my desk for any tomatoes that likely will be thrown my way.
    as one of the token lefties on the forum i would make 2 points to you:

    1) don't fall over in shock that a forum for high-income doctors trying to save money leans right
    2) if anything the mods are allowing a bit more political talk than they did at one point

    expanding on point 1, if the slight conservative lean bothers you it's going to be tough to read here for very long. not every intellectual space can align perfectly with our chosen values.

    Leave a comment:

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