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  • #31
    Originally posted by Anne View Post

    If you look at active duty mortality data for the past 20 years, MVAs are pretty much always #1. In 2007 (and maybe 2006?) I think combat deaths surpassed MVA deaths, but far and away an active duty service member is most likely to die by MVA, followed by suicide, followed by other things that kill you, than they are to die in combat. And the majority of service members do not see combat, even if they serve in a combat zone. But all that is beside the point. The government does not pay the tuition for future military doctors under HPSP because they want to reimburse them for the risk if potentially dying. No, the govt pays it because it is a good deal for the govt. Uncle Sam is not dumb and knows that he will save money having doctors indebted to military service compared with trying to contract out for those services. HPSP is a good deal for the US taxpayer, who benefits from the services of the military overall, whether he/she wants to admit it or not. Is PSLF a good deal for the US taxpayer, especially when it is benefitting high income earners who should be able to pay back their loans no issue and are working in jobs that they (or another doctor) would probably be willingly working in anyways? In my opinion, no, but I am not upset about it. I had a great time serving in the military and am glad I learned firsthand that the US military does a whole lot more than “meddling in other countries’ affairs” and am grateful I was able to be part of it for a period of time.
    Your point is well taken but I the example I was referencing was that the relative risk of a fatal MVA as a civilian is/was higher than the risk of dying on active duty as an HPSP scholar.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by wa2106 View Post

      I was referring to you. I recall you implying people pursuing PSLF being immoral.

      https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/fo...regarding-pslf
      Not in this thread, which is what you referred to. But you are correct. I think if you sign on a piece of paper, take taxpayer money, and especially if you are a physician with all the means in the world to pay it off you should take a long look in the mirror when your 120th payment is made and ask your fellow Americans to pay for your debt.

      Comment


      • #33
        “My gripe on this is that we are over-paying the geezers in university admin (who contribute close to nothing) and passing those cost to the young and naive.”

        •I would bet the geezers disagree.
        •Your assumption of PSLF being based on success of funding education opportunities for disadvantaged might be a little optimistic. Failure means simply one works for a non profit. Fund raising, janitor or whatever. Offering to all doesn’t necessarily mean an efficient process for overcoming the financial barriers. Not a criticism, just “automatic” creates waste that might be avoided.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by TheDangerZone View Post

          Your point is well taken but I the example I was referencing was that the relative risk of a fatal MVA as a civilian is/was higher than the risk of dying on active duty as an HPSP scholar.
          Except active duty service members still die in MVAs all the time (which would still be considered ”dying on active duty”). And have the added (smaller) risk of dying in the ways that are unique to military service. So an active duty service member has a higher chance of dying in an MVA than in combat, yes, but that does not mean that “the relative risk of a fatal MVA as a civilian is/was higher than the risk of dying on active duty”. Not that this is relevant to the thread at all...

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          • #35
            Originally posted by ENT Doc View Post

            Not in this thread, which is what you referred to. But you are correct. I think if you sign on a piece of paper, take taxpayer money, and especially if you are a physician with all the means in the world to pay it off you should take a long look in the mirror when your 120th payment is made and ask your fellow Americans to pay for your debt.
            the paper I signed is called a promissory note. In that note it says I’m eligible for plsf. Literally on my loan. Everyone with loans is locked into this option,

            I read my contract and you high income private practice surgeons can foot my bill .

            It’s there. It’s my contract. It’s stupid not to do it. I practice rural and make more than most metro specialists and will only pay 260 k over the next few years vs 800 k over the next 10 trying to pay off 500 k

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Ekanive23 View Post

              the paper I signed is called a promissory note. In that note it says I’m eligible for plsf. Literally on my loan. Everyone with loans is locked into this option,

              I read my contract and you high income private practice surgeons can foot my bill .

              It’s there. It’s my contract. It’s stupid not to do it. I practice rural and make more than most metro specialists and will only pay 260 k over the next few years vs 800 k over the next 10 trying to pay off 500 k
              Well you’re just as bad as the Americans who took out two mortgages and expected everyone else to take care of things. Just because something is monetarily available through a government program doesn’t make it ethical to execute. Take the woman who has another kid so she can get more welfare dollars. Or the person who can’t pay for their groceries yet chooses to have a child that mandates all other Americans to pay for them and their child. It’s all the same. Sure, it’s written in a contract or in law. But it all wreaks of the same unethical behavior.

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              • #37


                Originally posted by ENT Doc View Post

                Well you’re just as bad as the Americans who took out two mortgages and expected everyone else to take care of things. Just because something is monetarily available through a government program doesn’t make it ethical to execute. Take the woman who has another kid so she can get more welfare dollars. Or the person who can’t pay for their groceries yet chooses to have a child that mandates all other Americans to pay for them and their child. It’s all the same. Sure, it’s written in a contract or in law. But it all wreaks of the same unethical behavior.
                So first, it was that students should read the loan contracts and bend over and take it but now it’s also wrong to expect the government to honor that same contract?

                Ignoring the inflammatory anecdotes which speak to your apparent view of society and welfare... Did you return all funds received from the CARES Act and hold off on applying for PPE loans? You know, since you consider yourself a physician with “all the means in the world” it would seem wrong to accept just because it was made available through the government.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by TheDangerZone View Post



                  So first, it was that students should read the loan contracts and bend over and take it but now it’s also wrong to expect the government to honor that same contract?

                  Ignoring the inflammatory anecdotes which speak to your apparent view of society and welfare... Did you return all funds received from the CARES Act and hold off on applying for PPE loans? You know, since you consider yourself a physician with “all the means in the world” it would seem wrong to accept just because it was made available through the government.
                  Dont worry, ENT never took a deduction in his/her life. Mortgage Interest? Nah. Deduction for child? No way, only welfare queens do that!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ENT Doc View Post

                    Well you’re just as bad as the Americans who took out two mortgages and expected everyone else to take care of things. Just because something is monetarily available through a government program doesn’t make it ethical to execute. Take the woman who has another kid so she can get more welfare dollars. Or the person who can’t pay for their groceries yet chooses to have a child that mandates all other Americans to pay for them and their child. It’s all the same. Sure, it’s written in a contract or in law. But it all wreaks of the same unethical behavior.
                    You’re talking in circles now. First you told us to read and understand. Guidance counselors blah blah blah. Well I took it upon myself and read a multitude of books, used my counselors, am on this blog, listen to student loan planner... and now it’s unethical to do it despite my snowflake self doing my homework.

                    I wouldn’t have done medicine if I didn’t qualify. However, I do so I did medicine. I went to a DO program and unfortunate have 500 of debt. However, all my decisions were hinges on my educated opinion knowing full right, high earners like yourself will be footing the bill for me,

                    this website is all about financial gain. Based on your arguments you’ve provided I’d make the assumption you are against doctors getting pre tax benefits for retirement accounts too?

                    you’re not writing off all of your mortgage interest, income tax, and all the donations you do too?

                    all in all this program was able to pull me from Chicago to a more rural area. It’s mutually beneficial. I make great money being in a smaller town. This benefit is essentially worth 100 k after tax dollars to me over the course of 7 years. I’d be an idiot to say now.

                    oh and I am a brand new attending so these stimulus checks for my kids, wife and myself have been great. Cared act has saved me well into mid 5 figures. Just throwing that out there cause I’m sure you’d love to hear that.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by TheDangerZone View Post



                      So first, it was that students should read the loan contracts and bend over and take it but now it’s also wrong to expect the government to honor that same contract?

                      Ignoring the inflammatory anecdotes which speak to your apparent view of society and welfare... Did you return all funds received from the CARES Act and hold off on applying for PPE loans? You know, since you consider yourself a physician with “all the means in the world” it would seem wrong to accept just because it was made available through the government.
                      I’m worse... I have three mortgages as I am highly leveraged on physician mortgages for rental properties after living there for a year and moving out and renting.

                      thank god I have you high income earners to bail me out,...

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Ekanive23 View Post

                        You’re talking in circles now. First you told us to read and understand. Guidance counselors blah blah blah. Well I took it upon myself and read a multitude of books, used my counselors, am on this blog, listen to student loan planner... and now it’s unethical to do it despite my snowflake self doing my homework.

                        I wouldn’t have done medicine if I didn’t qualify. However, I do so I did medicine. I went to a DO program and unfortunate have 500 of debt. However, all my decisions were hinges on my educated opinion knowing full right, high earners like yourself will be footing the bill for me,

                        this website is all about financial gain. Based on your arguments you’ve provided I’d make the assumption you are against doctors getting pre tax benefits for retirement accounts too?

                        you’re not writing off all of your mortgage interest, income tax, and all the donations you do too?

                        all in all this program was able to pull me from Chicago to a more rural area. It’s mutually beneficial. I make great money being in a smaller town. This benefit is essentially worth 100 k after tax dollars to me over the course of 7 years. I’d be an idiot to say now.

                        oh and I am a brand new attending so these stimulus checks for my kids, wife and myself have been great. Cared act has saved me well into mid 5 figures. Just throwing that out there cause I’m sure you’d love to hear that.
                        You are the perfect example of how a bad system creates bad incentives and produces entitled attitudes wanting others to pull your weight. And it’s not me paying your bill BTW. It’s your kids and their kids. And mine too.

                        And those stimulus checks will have to be paid back on your tax return, assuming you make a reasonable doctor salary.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by drmka26 View Post
                          I wont thank you for your service or this country's never ending hunger to meddle in other countries affairs and needless wars. That's a complete different discussion.

                          Just because you served in military does not mean other public servants doesn't deserve government incentives. Be happy if something good happens to others. Whats the point of being salty?

                          Our government spends billions (trillions?) to large corp subsidies, banks and useless military spending - its time for this to change.
                          If you’re talking about me, I never asked for your thanks. Your crass remarks overlook the real people I’m referring to in regards to getting free tuition for sacrificing their lives - soldiers who are often from lower income backgrounds who go off to war and are given a GI Bill in return. You don’t have to agree with the government getting involved in wars. But I would expect anyone to recognize their sacrifice and bravery. That you would equate them and doctors working at a 501c3 is laughable. Really a pathetic response.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ENT Doc View Post

                            If you’re talking about me, I never asked for your thanks. Your crass remarks overlook the real people I’m referring to in regards to getting free tuition for sacrificing their lives - soldiers who are often from lower income backgrounds who go off to war and are given a GI Bill in return. You don’t have to agree with the government getting involved in wars. But I would expect anyone to recognize their sacrifice and bravery. That you would equate them and doctors working at a 501c3 is laughable. Really a pathetic response.
                            i am very respectful of your service and also of your opinion that PSLF isn't a good idea. the former is admirable and the latter is a perfectly reasonable position.

                            but one thing that has become commonplace in the last few years is to cast policy disagreements as "X vs. the troops." This is not only a textbook false dichotomy (as you can see easily) it's also dangerous because it stokes rage where none really need exist.

                            It's silly, intellectually lazy, and, quite frankly, given how I have come to know your grasp of these issues, it's beneath you.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by East coast View Post

                              To paraphrase and recap a number of statements in the most active discussions on this board the past few months:

                              - Media over blowing Coronavirus! My personal favs include complaints that AZ media was over hyping cases (not that the numbers/facts were incorrect, but that they wanted to get the governor at any chance!), followed by that state becoming an epicenter, as well as the person stating July 4th weekend death tolls [presumably] as evidence that we'd defeated this sucker! Followed by those totals quintupling for the last 8 weeks and still going strong. Another fav was the calling out of the fellow doctor on local TV news claiming there [i suppose] malicious descriptions about what their experience in the hospital had been and calling for punishment of said colleague.

                              - Buffet should keep quiet about taxes! He doesn't really want his to go up - if he did he'd just pay now more out of personal virtue!

                              - PSLF and the little runts taking all the money! I think there has been exactly one example of actual 'abuse' of the system that I can recall - that guy that took out 800k+ and went heli-skiing and all that jazz.

                              - Darn cities being overrun by mobs. You folks living in them must really be out of your minds!

                              - user calling someone a snowflake on page 1 of a thread....4 pages later calling someone out for using 'ok boomer'. the irony!

                              Seems to be a lot of triggers and really does make sense why bogleheads keeps a tight handle on the types of topics/replies allowed. it is totally possible i have extreme recency bias, but having been on this board since the start, I do not recall many of these discussions going so far off track the first 3 yrs. All the while, here I am contributing to getting this topic way off track!! Now i'll go hide under my desk for any tomatoes that likely will be thrown my way.
                              as one of the token lefties on the forum i would make 2 points to you:

                              1) don't fall over in shock that a forum for high-income doctors trying to save money leans right
                              2) if anything the mods are allowing a bit more political talk than they did at one point

                              expanding on point 1, if the slight conservative lean bothers you it's going to be tough to read here for very long. not every intellectual space can align perfectly with our chosen values.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by MPMD View Post

                                i am very respectful of your service and also of your opinion that PSLF isn't a good idea. the former is admirable and the latter is a perfectly reasonable position.

                                but one thing that has become commonplace in the last few years is to cast policy disagreements as "X vs. the troops." This is not only a textbook false dichotomy (as you can see easily) it's also dangerous because it stokes rage where none really need exist.

                                It's silly, intellectually lazy, and, quite frankly, given how I have come to know your grasp of these issues, it's beneath you.
                                Appreciate your comments. To be clear it’s not a X vs troops. When it comes to debating or thinking about a policy I think it’s helpful to look at other known issues to see how they are thought of and see if the new standard applies. So look at things before PSLF. What was and remains a good litmus test for forgiving or paying off loans. Those situations were reserved for those who sacrificed for our country or who were willing to work in impoverished and/or remote areas. With that as the standard, now throw in PSLF. The current qualifications do not measure up to the old standards. And to equate the two in any way is disingenuous. That’s all I’m saying. It’s not a X vs troops. Just a way of thinking about PSLF compared to what I think was and should be the standard for forgiving loans.

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