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  • #61
    I agree it's a fair ask for that an analysis but speaking as a sociologist, building an analysis that incorporates human nature (especially that of politicians) is going to have a very low p-value. It's really hard to predict things like human nature. As you mentioned the willingness to defy what is reasonable is going to get worse because the problem will only get worse. The best time to address something to terrible was yesterday. The second best time is today. But due to no one really personally suffering because the problem hasn't been addressed, I don't expect people to address it today. Politicians of all stripes are guilty of speaking about the terrible path we are on, but they do that when they are out of power. When they are in power they no longer find the debt and deficit to be an issue. Which is why the problem won't get fixed.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by JBME View Post
      I agree it's a fair ask for that an analysis but speaking as a sociologist, building an analysis that incorporates human nature (especially that of politicians) is going to have a very low p-value. It's really hard to predict things like human nature. As you mentioned the willingness to defy what is reasonable is going to get worse because the problem will only get worse. The best time to address something to terrible was yesterday. The second best time is today. But due to no one really personally suffering because the problem hasn't been addressed, I don't expect people to address it today. Politicians of all stripes are guilty of speaking about the terrible path we are on, but they do that when they are out of power. When they are in power they no longer find the debt and deficit to be an issue. Which is why the problem won't get fixed.
      You could substitute “climate change” for much of this discussion and yet you have wide swaths of our political elite calling for upending our economy in order to address it. My point is that it can be addressed. But our leaders are too weak willed to do so.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by JBME View Post
        I was 10 when Perot ran first. It was the first campaign I was aware of and followed. My parents were Perot fans. It was thanks to him I became aware of the federal debt and deficit. In 1992 he was talking about what a terrible thing adults were doing to their children and grandchildren. Now I’m 40 and one of those children. I don’t see all of the hysteria Perot talked about (to be clear, I believe in fiscal responsibility and would love to pay down the debt just because it’s the right thing to do) playing out today. If anything our economy is stronger today than in 1992. So it is subsequently harder for me to really take the hysteria seriously. It’s as if he was crying wolf.

        fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me
        This is the thing. Theoretically it totally makes sense. But people have been fear mongering about the debt for literally 100+ years. At a certain point when you are wrong over and over and over again maybe you need to reevaluate the argument.

        It reminds me of people who are absolutely CONVINCED the market is going to tank. Totally could, and theres many ways we could explain it! But if it doesn't, will you admit you were wrong and maybe don't know what's going to happen?

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        • #64
          Originally posted by spiritrider View Post
          Any of these proposals are not taking one single cent of your earned money or even tax advantages received .
          Well, no. Not even close.

          Remember that these are proposals to raise taxes. That is to take more money from the people who earned it. Every dollar that is taxed because the earner cannot put it and keep it in a deferred or tax free account is a dollar TAKEN from the earner and given to the government.

          Otherwise, like Joe Biden's "free" $3.5 trillion, the money would.have to appear out of nowhere.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by spiritrider View Post

            Your children and grandchildren are going to be screwed if we don't get the budget deficits under control and actually start paying down the Nation Debt. The plain fact is that we can't be all things to all people and people making >= half a million don't need any entitlements. I would be more supportive of all of the changes on upper income taxpayers if they were being used to reduce the deficit and not starting even more future unfunded entitlements.
            The solution to the deficit and the debt not to raise taxes, on anyone. The solution is to cut spending.
            to make it easy and predictable, start with 1% real reduction for '22, 2% for '23 and 3% real every year thereafter until the deficit becomes a surplus. Then use the surplus to pay down the debt.

            People with higher incomes have the same right to keep their money as does anyone else.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by JBME View Post

              I thought every dollar was created or possessed by the US mint, which is the government 🙂

              every dollar I have now was also created elsewhere
              The mint does not create dollars.

              Most of the money supply is created by lending activities, not by the government.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by ENT Doc View Post

                Yes but that infrastructure was paid for by those companies/people enjoying it now and companies/people who enjoyed it before. The government, and all its employees, are working for US. We employ them to collectively accomplish what would be difficult otherwise. So just because they created the infrastructure doesn’t mean they paid for it with some independent and benevolent intent. This is why I have always found the “you didn’t get there on your own” argument about the government to be hollow. May not be the argument you are making here, but I sensed a whiff of it in your first statement.
                The government and all its employees works for the people who run the government. They certianly do not work for US.

                Since they tell us how much money we have to pay to keep them in luxury, they are the bosses and we get the privilege of doing what we are told.

                ​​​​​​ WE have precious little control over what they do. Or what they force us to do.

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                • #68
                  Does cutting govt spending include cutting Medicare physician reimbursements? Medicare is the majority of my income, so just wondering.

                  Or are we talking about cutting the govt spending that goes to bailing out the stock market and saves many of our retirement funds every time the market crashes?

                  Are we cutting the money that pays for covid vaccines? Or the govt loans to support physicians practices and businesses during covid?


                  Or are we only talking about cutting the govt spending that goes to help other people, not doctors?

                  I personally feel like I benefit a lot from our governmental institutions. Even programs like medicaid, allowed me, most of us, and our relatives to avoid having to buy long-term care insurance prior to reaching the financial point where we could self-insure.

                  There are many countries with lower taxes and no safety net. I’d be too scared to live in one of them.
                  Last edited by Dusn; 11-07-2021, 01:16 PM.

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                  • #69
                    Do we have an update for 2022?? It looks like they added the law back to block backdoor roth.

                    I’m a little confused since it’s been going back and forth.
                    Can anyone clear this up for me?

                    thansk

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                    • #70
                      It’s still in negotiations and hasn’t passed either house so updates are pretty pointless right now

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by afan View Post

                        The government and all its employees works for the people who run the government. They certianly do not work for US.

                        Since they tell us how much money we have to pay to keep them in luxury, they are the bosses and we get the privilege of doing what we are told.

                        ​​​​​​ WE have precious little control over what they do. Or what they force us to do.
                        To some degree you are pointing out the fact that we have an administrative state, where bureaucrats write policy and we obey. This occurs regardless of who is in power. But the ideal, and to a large degree through elections, we appoint people to work for us. We don’t work for them. We don’t owe them anything other than thanks when they do a good job for us and condemnation and “firing” when they do a bad job. The courts also provide a safeguard against administrative overreach and with laws overstepping their legal bounds. I’m a cynic like you appear to be, but I recognize that I don’t work for the government.

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