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  • Hoopoe
    replied
    This could be reasonable. Don't forget that interest rate on the mortgage refinance is tax deductible as an investing interest expense (interest tracing rules). I think it's fairly likely to get the 6% preferred return minus 1.25% or so real effective interest rate =4.5% plus the appreciation for a net of 7.5%+. I think you would come out ahead and the fund sounds like it has a good strategy. Less liquid than DLP (5 year lockup with penalty for early withdrawal) and performance has been well under DLP for the past year and a half but I bet would be some equalization long term. I am thinking of Origin but much more heavy with DLP and some individual syndication deals (4-6 deals over time is the same as a fund and you can cash flow into it over a year or so similar to a fund that might have your original amount un-invested for a while and take up to a year to get invested.

    Also consider a "less volatile" but very liquid alternative like NTSX for a portion if you want to try and use the leverage.

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  • StarTrekDoc
    replied
    Originally posted by dennis View Post

    I invest in real estate for passive cash flow and that's what I was writing about. 3.5% net cash flow isn't nearly as good as directly owned real estate.
    It's apples to oranges though. Direct RE is work. Even the most stable NNN commercial property has work involved.

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  • dennis
    replied
    Originally posted by PhysicianOnFIRE View Post

    You're confusing distribution yield with total return. Target is 9% to 11% annually (I'm invested in the fund).
    I invest in real estate for passive cash flow and that's what I was writing about. 3.5% net cash flow isn't nearly as good as directly owned real estate.

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  • PhudInvestor
    replied
    Originally posted by deanyar View Post
    I am in my late 40s, and at the beginning of the year, we paid off our mortgage to be debt free for the 1st time in forever (yay!!).
    I thought that I would never borrow again...
    Tomorrow, we are taking out a mortgage against our home for $250K (15 yr fixed at 2.5%), and that money will go directly to Origin Investment's Income Plus Fund. I rationalize this because 1) the rates are so low, and 2) in order to invest in private RE funds, you need to have a chunk of cash at one time, and I am hesitant to sell off any of our publicly traded investments to do this...and it would otherwise take many months to accumulate this amount of cash prospectively. I will probably pay off the new mortgage in 5 years, all the while keeping our investing plan and goals intact.

    So, my question is: Going back into debt = Crazy? or crazy smart?
    I am mixed on the plan. Generally, it is good to use debt from one investment to an other, but not so good to take on personal debt for investments. I am doing exactly what you suggested, but I am doing a cash-out refinance from an investment property. In my case all the costs and interest will be written off against income from the first property. You don't get any of these advantages. Also, your net difference is not as good as it looks at first glance. Your net will look like this (Income from the investment - tax on the income - interest on your home). If you pull the money on an investment property, the tax is after the interest is paid. All that said, what you are doing is no different than if you had not paid off your home loan and instead put the money into an investment originally. As long as the investment makes a return high enough to cover the interest and taxes on the gain, it is a win and hopefully you are getting some pass-through deprecation as well.


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  • PhysicianOnFIRE
    replied
    Originally posted by dennis View Post
    So basically you're doing an arbitrage play, paying 2.5% for the funds to get a 6% return (from their website). Net is 3.5%. I don't think the risk is worth the expected return. Directly owned real estate gives you a much higher return.
    You're confusing distribution yield with total return. Target is 9% to 11% annually (I'm invested in the fund).

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  • deanyar
    replied
    Originally posted by dennis View Post
    So basically you're doing an arbitrage play, paying 2.5% for the funds to get a 6% return (from their website). Net is 3.5%. I don't think the risk is worth the expected return. Directly owned real estate gives you a much higher return.
    You are correct - the 6% is just looking at their distributions (0.5% per month). However, there is also an anticipated appreciation of the properties of 3-5% per year. Whether that actually happens remains to be seen, but even if it is say, only 1 or 2%, that is an overall 7-8% (ie, 4.5-5.5% net return). And they have a good track record...

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  • deanyar
    replied
    Originally posted by Lithium View Post
    The most questionable part of your plan to me is putting all your eggs (or 20% of your retirement portfolio) in one sponsor’s basket. Let’s all hope you don’t get Madoff’d.
    I see what you mean. Allow me to clarify - although my goal is to have 20% of my overall portfolio in private equity RE funds, I do not plan on investing with just one sponsor. I am already invested with 37th parallel and DLP, so Origin would be my 3rd...

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  • Lithium
    replied
    The most questionable part of your plan to me is putting all your eggs (or 20% of your retirement portfolio) in one sponsor’s basket. Let’s all hope you don’t get Madoff’d.

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  • dennis
    replied
    So basically you're doing an arbitrage play, paying 2.5% for the funds to get a 6% return (from their website). Net is 3.5%. I don't think the risk is worth the expected return. Directly owned real estate gives you a much higher return.

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  • childay
    replied
    No thanks.

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  • deanyar
    replied
    Originally posted by StarTrekDoc View Post
    Really depends on where you are in retirement funding and risk taking. At 2.5% it's a little high for current 15y but it's probably because a smaller loan that's causing that. Just balance out the cost of the loan fees into the issue and your risk tolerance and reasons for pulling money out of primary house that you worked hard to payoff.

    What changed in your retirement plans to make such a shift?
    Good question - about a year ago, we decided to alter our investment plan, to include private equity RE funds - with a goal of 20%, no more than 25% of our portfolio. This is primarily to offer more diversification in our portfolio beyond the publicly traded equity and bond funds. So, I reasoned that in order to invest in these real estate funds, it necessitates a sum of cash to invest at once, which seems easier this way versus waiting for money to accumulate and then invest. Honestly, 5 or 6 months ago, I would have never thought about taking a loan to do something like this, but the more I thought about it, the more it seemed to make sense to me.

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  • G
    replied
    Being debt free was clearly not as magical for you as for others.

    Risk/reward. Not sure what 250 means to you up or down.

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  • CordMcNally
    replied
    No.

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  • StarTrekDoc
    replied
    Really depends on where you are in retirement funding and risk taking. At 2.5% it's a little high for current 15y but it's probably because a smaller loan that's causing that. Just balance out the cost of the loan fees into the issue and your risk tolerance and reasons for pulling money out of primary house that you worked hard to payoff.

    What changed in your retirement plans to make such a shift?

    Leave a comment:


  • VagabondMD
    replied
    Hmm, I would not do that. This sounds a lot like a market top (for RE funds) when people are doing these sorts of things, so desperate not to miss out. I am one voice and tend to be on the boring and conservative end of the spectrum. Others here might applaud you for doing so.

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