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Offered a contract 2 years ahead of start date

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  • #16
    Originally posted by goblue667 View Post

    This situation is different.
    Famous words.


    • #17
      Originally posted by 8arclay View Post
      Are you planning on being the pain guy/gal for an anesthesia group? The ability to practice both is appealing, but I offer caution. When I was looking into these positions I found that the pain guy/gal typically got the worst of all worlds

      -Part of anesthesia group, so you may be taking call, very likely if you join a partnership. Nights, weekends, holidays (none of which you would do if single specialty pain)

      -Despite you taking call for anesthesia, nobody will be qualified to cover your pain clinic should you decide to take a vacation

      -If youre doing interventional pain youll likely be a larger revenue generator than you general anesthesia partners

      -Despite generating more revenue and working more, revenue split could be equal among partners.

      I would absolutely not sign off on a contract unless its very clear what call/compensation structure is, I dont care how prestigious the system is. Of course, considering its 2+ yrs out they likely wont be able to provide anything iron clad. Like I said, Id jump at the fellowship and drag feet on the job.

      Related: I strongly dislike when prestige is presented as something of value in a contract negotiation.

      Thank you for your input! Fortunately, I will be one of many pain personal for the anesthesia team. We do not operate based on x amount of years to be partner or "bought in". There is currently a very clear call schedule where you are required to work 1 overnight weekend call per month where you split the overnight with another staff attending (max 12 hour shift). There are several others that are qualified in the department that would be qualified to take over on vacation (with obvious heads up for scheduling). Other benefits that I have havent mentioned:

      - compensation for presenting at conferences, publications
      - 10k educational stipend per year for attneding conference travel (trying to find one in Hawaii )
      - 8 weeks starting vacay
      - IRS maximum retirement contribution


      • #18
        How does the salary range compare to other places in the area FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF WORK? Does it include all comp (insurance, match, etc- and how long until you are vested if it does include match) and will you be able to compare apples to apples (hours, call, post call, admin, salary, bonus, match, vacation)?

        Even for a large group, 15 is a lot of anesthesiologists (~1/3?) to replace/rehire- was the group top heavy? or do they burn out their young? How many people leave/year for the ~5 years pre covid? Most young/mid career people don't quit during COVID unless the place was miserable to work for and it served as a good excuse to leave- so if it was all the older people who decided to retire, where was the hiring over the last few years in anticipation of replacing the elder workforce?

        Again, maybe this time is different, but I still highly doubt it. And most likely a spot will be there for you in 2 years, and you can use this offer as the starting floor in negotiations that time around


        • #19
          Originally posted by goblue667 View Post
          they are hiring 15 new staff Anesthesiologist for the 2022 and 2023 academic year due to the fact that we had an higher rate of retirement/burnout resignations due to the pandemic.
          You don’t see this as a red flag? You’re not worried about being constantly understaffed and overworked? You can’t always blame it on the pandemic.


          • #20
            I agree it’s concerning that they lost so many people from such a ‘prestigious’ place. Maybe they figured out prestige is generally a made up thing in the academic world.


            • #21
              "Related: I strongly dislike when prestige is presented as something of value in a contract negotiation."
              "I am going to head up a newly developed pain service when I start. Currently they are interviewing for 10 new positions for that year"

              So much turnover, The ones that retired have already left. That deep bench may not be so deep when you begin, some more may be looking and waiting for the right exit opportunity. The fact that YOU will head up a service in a large prestigious academic system is reason to pause. What happened to the bench? First it was as an attending. Now you will be responsible for developing a new service?
              How much additional comp for the responsibility and do you really have the experience?

              The point is that the "plum jobs" usually have competition. I would be interested how the rankings were for the other candidates. This may be a fantastic opportunity. If your dept chair is that strong of a mentor/supporter to make those type of commitments, you need to consider the possibility of the Chair leaving.
              They tell athletes never to pick a university based on the coach, for a very good reason. If the Chair wants you, he will save a spot. Maybe not heading up the pain service.

              Sometimes there is an opening and sometimes it comes later. Keep the network connections, but slow walk the job. There is absolutely no reason not to ask what the Chair has in mind for a decision date.


              • #22
                Really, the only word i needed to read was academic.


                • #23
                  I think it’s a bad idea to sign a contract so far in advance with not even a guarantee of base salary and after 1/3 of the department quit in the last year. Red flags. Don’t excuse these things because you like the place.


                  • #24
                    don't do it. I wouldn't want to work for a dept chair that says 'I dont want to wait for an answer'. sounds like he is a jerk, and I'm sure I'm right.


                    • #25
                      Danger danger. You are in love with the hospital? You’re about to make a mistake.

                      Your chair “doesn’t like to wait.” That’s a bullying technique and not something I would tolerate. You don’t want to wait so you want me to make a snap judgement about my career, family life and financial future? And you won’t put on paper my exact job responsibilities and pay? Nah man. I would turn it back to him. What he’s asking you to do is wildly irresponsible. If you were me, would you give up all your rights and negotiation because the guy you’re working with is inpatient?

                      He’s asking to own you. And without knowing much about specialty or your hospital, if you are in NE and academics and prestigious, you’re getting underpaid.

                      My response: my financial advisor said I have to have a lawyer review the contract.

                      And I promise, the verbal salary of that range will be changed, “I know we said this, but the hospital management is telling us we need to turn rooms quicker or we’ll lose this CT surg group so we had to hire two more CT folks and we’ll get you next year….you understand. Go team!”


                      • #26
                        OP you have at least two anesthesiologists commenting on this thread (Im assuming VentAlarm is an anesthesiologist). Just to reiterate, we both say this is a bad idea


                        • #27
                          I signed a contract a year in advance for a group that was increasing staffing due to a hospital that was not even built yet. It was a unicorn job and well worth the wait/uncertainty. Perhaps you have found a unicorn job too. However, the 30% attrition rate would be clear and convincing evidence that you are absolutely wrong.

                          If this literally happened--"The department chair of the department stated that "he does not like waiting for answer" without any concrete numbers"--your boss (if he is even there in two years) is either hopelessly naive or has a personality disorder. And given that he is the chair of anesthesia at a "prestigious" academic medical center, it is unlikely that he is naive.

                          I will also say that a lot can happen over the course of two years. Health, relationship, professional issues. All happened to me over the course of a single year, but things still turned out for the best. No need to use your imagination, these are often-told stories.

                          OP, I will say this. I love your enthusiasm, but you are young and the posters above have a combined experience of centuries. Do not dismiss the caution.


                          • #28
                            If the OP wants to be in an academic setting, maybe this is the right job. However, if you want to make hay, they’re severely underpaying you.

                            I have 2 pain management docs in my group (MCOL Midwest city) and they take home 2x they’re offering you. And they take no calls. CME stipend is a chump change.


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by goblue667 View Post
                              Hello, I am a CA3 resident in anesthesiology. I was offered a fellowship job last spring for the 2022-2023 year and then right after that they wanted me to start interviewing for an attending position starting in August 2023. Super exciting! However, the hospital will not know the exact base pay numbers for at least a year but stated it would be between 420-470k in addition to incentives. The department chair of the department stated that "he does not like waiting for answer" aka he wants me to accept soon after I submit my letters of Rec. I really am in love with this hospital and feel comfortable with everyone in it. They treat me like a superstar and feel valued. Would anyone else be a bit skeptical of accepting a job this far out without seeing base pay numbers?
                              id be annoyed af if someone said they dont like waiting for an answer and tried to pressure me, not a great side


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by billy View Post
                                OP you have at least two anesthesiologists commenting on this thread (Im assuming VentAlarm is an anesthesiologist). Just to reiterate, we both say this is a bad idea
                                I’m not. I’m academic EM and intensivist but trained with a lot of anesthesia folks and obviously see a lot of trainees get duped.