Surprise mtg w/ chief of service and admin. Should I have lawyer present?

[tailwind225]

This thread (and the other one I started) has for the first time since I started posting on WCI forums, made me sad. There seems to be a undercurrent of bitterness and lack of self awareness and appreciation of how fortunate we are as physicians. The whole us versus them attitude, it’s really too bad. I suspect this is not the prevailing sentiment or attitude amongst physicians in practice but who knows. The recent post by user afan was really well written and wise in so many ways, thank you sir for writing that. Moderators: is there a way you can deactivate this account.

I see your point and agree on average, physicians have it good. At an individual level, there are situations that can arise and affect a single physician here or there profoundly but may not change the average. While rare, the thought of these situations keeps some up at night. This is why there is so much empathy with the author’s situation. Some examples include
-med student w/ 400k debt not graduating or not matching for some reason (becoming increasingly more common)
-a fantastic doctor gets sued above malpractice limits and loses everything
-disagreements with administration or other physicians compromising career

I think the key is finding balance. Dont naively write off these rare outcomes as impossible but also dont fixate on them and become bitter.

[Lithium]

“U R lucky, be grateful” sounds fine in abstract, but because it is also a message that many of us have seen weaponized by bad actors you were always going to get pushback. I think we’re seeing elements of that in this thread.

FLP, you’ve done some quality trolling, but after EMD got banned, you were always a Q without a U. Happy trails.

[VagabondMD]

Instead of just leaving or not posting anymore he’s making a show out of it by asking the mods to deactivate his account. Maybe if we beg he’ll stick around...

I will bite. I disagree with flp about 75% of the time, sometimes vehemently. Even when I disagree, strongly, he does make me take time to consider the opposite viewpoint. I think his often contrary perspective is necessary for a balanced discussion, even though I might not agree with the point or the presentation. So I will beg.

[VentAlarm]

“U R lucky, be grateful” sounds fine in abstract, but because it is also a message that many of us have seen weaponized by bad actors you were always going to get pushback. I think we’re seeing elements of that in this thread.

FLP, you’ve done some quality trolling, but after EMD got banned, you were always a Q without a U. Happy trails.

EMD got banned? Wow. What’d he do that was finally over the limit? I feel like the mods are super quick to close a thread but very cautious about banning people.

[Lithium]

EMD got banned? Wow. What’d he do that was finally over the limit? I feel like the mods are super quick to close a thread but very cautious about banning people.

I dunno. I just looked him up and it said “banned” underneath his avatar.

Anyway, sorry if I’m sidetracking this good thread further.

[OSman]

I am not assuming anyone who has contributed to this thread is in one boat or another.... but it's no secret that in my "real" life (as well as in my WCI life) that I have a general disdain for hospital administration. The benefit I have in real life is knowing a bit more about who it is that is offering me advice. The hospital I work at used to be doctor owned. So when a CMO (who cashed out 20 years ago) sits back and idly lets admin destroy the practice of medicine... I have a hard time taking any advice they have with more than a grain of salt. Would definitely be interesting knowing the backgrounds of some on here to help out their perspective in context.

[zlandar]

Does it matter if you are right or wrong if admin views you as a problem? It should never have gotten to this point.

I would have taken that first meeting as a big red flag to rectify the situation.

[jacoavlu]

mixed feelings about giving resignation notice. It seems you have one foot out the door anyway and it sounds like that is the right move irrespective of this situation

But. There could already be an “active” investigation. Not likely my guess. But not impossible. A meeting has already been requested and you can’t deny that you’re unaware. And if a complaint is serious, just bc you may no longer be an employee doesn’t mean a meeting isn’t still requested or an investigation or whatever process doesn’t still play out.

Non employed physicians still have to follow the med staff bylaws. If you want to keep taking care of patients in that facility that is. So you could resign employment and they could still try to force you in to some Improvement Plan

so my gut is that I wouldn’t immediately resign. Keep negotiating the new deal.

[AR]

mixed feelings about giving resignation notice. It seems you have one foot out the door anyway and it sounds like that is the right move irrespective of this situation

But. There could already be an “active” investigation. Not likely my guess. But not impossible.

If they never inform him of it, then he has no reporting requirement. He can't report on what he does not know.

A meeting has already been requested and you can’t deny that you’re unaware. And if a complaint is serious, just bc you may no longer be an employee doesn’t mean a meeting isn’t still requested or an investigation or whatever process doesn’t still play out.

He still has absolutely no idea what the meeting is about. They could be meeting to tell him they're going to give him a raise. It could be about anything. Moreover, it sounds like OP had made the decision to leave long before he was even told of the meeting.

You are correct, that they might make whatever process play out anyway. But if he gives notice, there is a chance that it does not. If he doesn't, then whatever it is definitely moves forward. If he's certain to leave, why not play the percentages.

Non employed physicians still have to follow the med staff bylaws. If you want to keep taking care of patients in that facility that is. So you could resign employment and they could still try to force you in to some Improvement Plan

That's a lot of work for someone to do. Especially if the doc is leaving. People are lazy. Unless they really want to stick it to this guy, I don't see them doing it. Anything is possible, but it seems unlikely.

[FIREshrink]

I am not assuming anyone who has contributed to this thread is in one boat or another.... but it's no secret that in my "real" life (as well as in my WCI life) that I have a general disdain for hospital administration. The benefit I have in real life is knowing a bit more about who it is that is offering me advice. The hospital I work at used to be doctor owned. So when a CMO (who cashed out 20 years ago) sits back and idly lets admin destroy the practice of medicine... I have a hard time taking any advice they have with more than a grain of salt. Would definitely be interesting knowing the backgrounds of some on here to help out their perspective in context.

I'm very lucky to work at a small regional mission driven not for profit hospital chain (20k employees). The CMO of my hospital and of the system are friends of mine. They are really smart, good men. I have a large admin role and a larger clinical role and am proud of both. There really is a culture here of solution finding, our former incident reporting structure was renamed safe to share exactly to prevent blame and scapegoating. We still do m&m and rca and safety stops but none with an eye to blame. As the content expert for my field, when there is a question or debate i am called in as content expert to provide a framework for solving problems. This occurs in every specialty.

Is this job a unicorn, i don't know. But i choose to work here and i choose not to go elsewhere even if the money could be better in a different environment exactly because I value, in fact treasure every one of my relationships here and the culture which is most akin to a large family. I have treated a number of dissatisfied physicians over the years, i know right away which ones will stay and which ones will leave. Those who stay want to solve problems. Those who leave feel everyone is to blame but themselves. I know for a fact my employer is not perfect but anyone who claims admin is lying or disrespecting them or treats doctors badly is just wrong. Note: these docs have typically been at several jobs both before and after us. It's not us; it's them.

I also believe and have said many times that docs should, they must get involved in admin. I'm in admin exactly because I have very high standards of patient care and personal comportment and wanted to help our department and hospitals deliver first rate clinical, compassionate psychiatric care and be the best place in the world to work. There have been plenty of rough patches but over the years the benefits of accruing social capital far outweigh any negatives.

I understand there are nasty, megasize academic and for profit institutions with different cultures, what I don't understand is why so many docs continue to work there, complaining about everything and everyone.

Call me naive; but better naive than cynical.

[MaxPower]

I will bite. I disagree with flp about 75% of the time, sometimes vehemently. Even when I disagree, strongly, he does make me take time to consider the opposite viewpoint. I think his often contrary perspective is necessary for a balanced discussion, even though I might not agree with the point or the presentation. So I will beg.

Perhaps, but ironic that the thing he criticized many of us for doing (without knowing what really happened or how it actually played out) is how he acted towards many on this forum, and a lot in this very thread.

[jacoavlu]

If they never inform him of it, then he has no reporting requirement. He can't report on what he does not know.



He still has absolutely no idea what the meeting is about. They could be meeting to tell him they're going to give him a raise. It could be about anything. Moreover, it sounds like OP had made the decision to leave long before he was even told of the meeting.

You are correct, that they might make whatever process play out anyway. But if he gives notice, there is a chance that it does not. If he doesn't, then whatever it is definitely moves forward. If he's certain to leave, why not play the percentages.




That's a lot of work for someone to do. Especially if the doc is leaving. People are lazy. Unless they really want to stick it to this guy, I don't see them doing it. Anything is possible, but it seems unlikely.

you could be entirely correct. As I said, mixed feelings.

but remember admin will be in cover their own ****************** mode. If it’s an employee complaint, and OP resigns but keeps working there, i don’t see admin brushing aside complaint. Lest the complainer double down and complain about being ignored.

the only time I see situations dropped (behavioral and clinical) is when the subject is gone altogether. And even then, a letter still ends up in a file.

[MaxPower]

EMD got banned? Wow. What’d he do that was finally over the limit? I feel like the mods are super quick to close a thread but very cautious about banning people.

Don’t know. I put that guy on mute a long time ago. My enjoyment of this forum went up about 95% when I no longer had to see his self-aggrandizing, delusional drivel.

[TheDangerZone]

Didn't you do this before after the Rolex debacle?

Was that a different hiatus than the time he posted a farewell poem after people started complaining about the constant back and forth between he and EMD?

FLP, this isn’t an airport. You don’t have to announce your departure. All the best.

[AR]

you could be entirely correct. As I said, mixed feelings.
.

But I don't get why you have mixed feelings. If I'm right, then giving notice ASAP helps him. If I'm wrong, it doesn't matter whether he gives notice or not (either way the result is similar). Hence, giving notice now is the superior course of action.