The PPP Thread

[docnews]

Do you think they will reopen applications or just agree to fund those already in the pipeline?

[Cubicle]

Yeah apparently the EIDLs are cooking. I haven't heard a peep. Neither have several colleagues...

I think they will fund only what has already been allocated. If they don't fill the $349 billion, they will just go down the list of excess applications. My guess.

I'd even go as far to guess that if any more PPP funds are approved, they'll vaporize with the applications already submitted.

[jfoxcpacfp]

I have heard so many people, experts, say they are 'learning as they go' and 'data is updated almost daily'. As doctors, we are expected to be perfect and God forbid if we make any mistake. We seem to be unique in precision. Accountants give me some confidence but they know as much about the PPP as my grandkids. Why is it this piece of crap rolled out without anybody knowing how this legislation is suppose to work, if it will work, and for whom? What is the back up plan?

Because they change the rules almost daily. And the CPAs happen to be in the “middle” of an extended tax season. I think the gov’t rolled this out to “do something” before thinking through the implications beforehand. Our team is building spreadsheets to help our bookkeeping clients make sure they are recording the right expenses for payback in 6 mos, field questions, run estimates, etc while trying to move returns through the system. I certainly believe (most) accountants know more about PPP than your grandkids. But we are having to research a BRAND NEW PIECE OF SIGNIFICANT LEGISLATION same as you. Most of our clients are impacted. Fortunately, they seem to be very understanding and appreciative. I realize that is not possible for everyone.

I just approved an update to this before I left today, hopefully will appear tomorrow. But, give me a break - many of us are alreadyworking 70+ hours per week. And we certainly work for clients who understand the need for perfection. I realize there is no coming back from dying and it’s a heavy responsibility. I have had that thrown in my face - legitimate criticism. Fortunately, we can amend for 3 years; otherwise, I don’t think any of us would be in a profession requiring 2 yrs past a college education and commensurate pay. (Fwiw, only a college degree when I sat for the exam back in the 18th century.)

[jacoavlu]

find a small bank with a name not nationally known, preferably with a few F150s or Silverados parked in the lot

Small-Business
Rescue Shows
Not All States Are
Created Equal

During the first 13 days of the federal government’s small-business rescue program, the spigot was wide open in Nebraska. Firms there got enough money to cover 82% of the state’s eligible payrolls. It was a different picture in New York and California, where companies did only half as well.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-sba-paycheck-protection-program/

[jfoxcpacfp]

Small-Business
Rescue Shows
Not All States Are
Created Equal

During the first 13 days of the federal government’s small-business rescue program, the spigot was wide open in Nebraska. Firms there got enough money to cover 82% of the state’s eligible payrolls. It was a different picture in New York and California, where companies did only half as well.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-sba-paycheck-protection-program/

Exactly - most of the difficulty applicants were experiencing seemed to be finding a bank to accept their when they had no personal relationship. A case of when being in good shape financially (i.e. less debt) worked against you.

[Tim]

Exactly - most of the difficulty applicants were experiencing seemed to be finding a bank to accept their when they had no personal relationship. A case of when being in good shape financially (i.e. less debt) worked against you.

The vast majority requiring an “existing relationship” was a huge road block .
Many bets? New funding may come with some additional restrictions that may not help many here. Checking the boxes for stimulus to reach predetermined beneficiaries or quotas or diversity or however some think funds should be allocated.

[formerly_cn]

The vast majority requiring an “existing relationship” was a huge road block .
Many bets? New funding may come with some additional restrictions that may not help many here. Checking the boxes for stimulus to reach predetermined beneficiaries or quotas or diversity or however some think funds should be allocated.

Bingo. I think the new funding of 250 B when that comes (and it will), I hope SBA/Congress wisened up. It will be stricter - which great. Should've never rushed it anyways. Stop tweeting Mnuchin.

Again, not to single out, or cry "sour grapes", rather a congrats to playing the game, but can any CPA explain why an IC who literally is an employee of one (classic example is a rad doing telerad or some psych doing telemed) receives a PPP check of 50-60K for his/her schedule C "net income" while a business that pays out 1099 to multiple employees hasn't received PPP loan. Where is the economic value ? Real business that layed off employees due to shut down? Or some IC with "self employer of 1" getting fat PPP check, which - for all intent and purpose - is an employee and should apply for unemployment.

Riddle me that.

Oh and Banks like Comerica bank still haven't started accepting PPP application, nevermind that the actual funding has vaporised. I already moved those business account away from that garbage bank.

Dont get me started on the business owners who are running their ecommerce business just fine and received PPP check (used Paypal which had 24 hr turnaround. Just wow. Total abuse.)

[Tim]

formerly_cn

”Where is the economic value ? Real business that layed off employees due to shut down? Or some IC with "self employer of 1" getting fat PPP check, which - for all intent and purpose - is an employee and should apply for unemployment.
Riddle me that.”

I empathize with your frustration, so don’t take offense.
Simple answer is two fold:
•Prevent double counts
If an entity pays W-2 it counts in PPP computation
You receive the payment and are able to pay employees. If 1099’s were included, then a sole proprietor would not be able to file. By excluding, you can still fund any w-2’s. The 1099’s can file and presto, everyone gets paid. You can keep the doors open.
• The funds go directly to the taxpayer ID that actually pays the taxes and deposits the withholdings or estimated payments. Their will be followup on taxes and loan forgiveness. That ID is responsible 100%. It is the only way to assign responsibilities and make it traceable and enforce the terms, forgive and/or collect. It exactly follows the chain of responsibility for taxes on earnings. Simply a supplement to support that.

[jfoxcpacfp]

Again, not to single out, or cry "sour grapes", rather a congrats to playing the game, but can any CPA explain why an IC who literally is an employee of one (classic example is a rad doing telerad or some psych doing telemed) receives a PPP check of 50-60K for his/her schedule C "net income" while a business that pays out 1099 to multiple employees hasn't received PPP loan. Where is the economic value ? Real business that layed off employees due to shut down? Or some IC with "self employer of 1" getting fat PPP check, which - for all intent and purpose - is an employee and should apply for unemployment.

Riddle me that.

Oh and Banks like Comerica bank still haven't started accepting PPP application, nevermind that the actual funding has vaporised. I already moved those business account away from that garbage bank.

Dont get me started on the business owners who are running their ecommerce business just fine and received PPP check (used Paypal which had 24 hr turnaround. Just wow. Total abuse.)

As Tim stated, businesses who took the loan $ will be responsible for proving a “need”. The CPAs of these businesses should be helping them NOW to organize their records for reporting to ensure those who do have a need will get loan forgiveness. Doctors are rather unique in that, when many of them applied, they had not even received much drop - if any - in collections due to the timing of payments. So many applied prophylactivley (is that a word?) b/c they knew they w/b very hard hit in a month or so.

The banks who didn’t accept applications had every right not to do so - we are not under a totalitarian regime.

I don’t really understand your point about the businesses who had 1099 employees. It does not make a lot of sense to me. Again, they have to prove loss. And the feds are allowing IC workers to claim unemployment, also (I have yet to understand how this works, as they have not paid into the state SUI system, but I imagine that will be sorted out at the fed/state level). Allowing businesses to keep employees on and/or give 8 wks of pd leave to affected workers before asking them to file for unemployment is one part of the bill that I think they did right. 75% of loan forgiveness is tied to employee expenses.

I have to ask that you have a tiny bit of sympathy for the gov’t. They were being asked to do a monumental task almost overnight, and they rolled it out. Of course, there were problems - and I don’t think they were related to Mnuchin’s time tweeting (which is probably handled by a subordinate and he gives the thumbs up or down). It was the rush and trying to coordinate millions of ppl’s needs with those of 50 different states. Prob 70% - 80% done right is my guess. A lot of needy businesses got help, the amt of $ needed was a pure guess and it dried up quickly. As is the case with the media, you are going to hear only the abuses. From f2f talks with doctors throughout the US, I can testify it is helping many who need it (those who applied in time, at least).

[CordMcNally]

Should've never rushed it anyways.

If it wasn't rushed then many of the businesses this was intended to help would have gone under. This wasn't something that they could take their time on. In general, I prefer less government than more but I was impressed they got this done so fast. As with all things, perfect is the enemy of good.

[GastroMastro]

Have any independent contractors or sole proprietor without any additional employees actually gotten a check?

[GastroMastro]

Bingo. I think the new funding of 250 B when that comes (and it will), I hope SBA/Congress wisened up. It will be stricter - which great. Should've never rushed it anyways. Stop tweeting Mnuchin.

Again, not to single out, or cry "sour grapes", rather a congrats to playing the game, but can any CPA explain why an IC who literally is an employee of one (classic example is a rad doing telerad or some psych doing telemed) receives a PPP check of 50-60K for his/her schedule C "net income" while a business that pays out 1099 to multiple employees hasn't received PPP loan. Where is the economic value ? Real business that layed off employees due to shut down? Or some IC with "self employer of 1" getting fat PPP check, which - for all intent and purpose - is an employee and should apply for unemployment.

Riddle me that.

Oh and Banks like Comerica bank still haven't started accepting PPP application, nevermind that the actual funding has vaporised. I already moved those business account away from that garbage bank.

Dont get me started on the business owners who are running their ecommerce business just fine and received PPP check (used Paypal which had 24 hr turnaround. Just wow. Total abuse.)

an IC is not receiving a 50-60k check. Max allowed is $8333x2 months. Maybe a little more if you’re paying for rent which many are not.

[formerly_cn]

As Tim stated, businesses who took the loan $ will be responsible for proving a “need”. The CPAs of these businesses should be helping them NOW to organize their records for reporting to ensure those who do have a need will get loan forgiveness. Doctors are rather unique in that, when many of them applied, they had not even received much drop - if any - in collections due to the timing of payments. So many applied prophylactivley (is that a word?) b/c they knew they w/b very hard hit in a month or so.

The banks who didn’t accept applications had every right not to do so - we are not under a totalitarian regime.

I don’t really understand your point about the businesses who had 1099 employees. It does not make a lot of sense to me. Again, they have to prove loss. And the feds are allowing IC workers to claim unemployment, also (I have yet to understand how this works, as they have not paid into the state SUI system, but I imagine that will be sorted out at the fed/state level). Allowing businesses to keep employees on and/or give 8 wks of pd leave to affected workers before asking them to file for unemployment is one part of the bill that I think they did right. 75% of loan forgiveness is tied to employee expenses.

I have to ask that you have a tiny bit of sympathy for the gov’t. They were being asked to do a monumental task almost overnight, and they rolled it out. Of course, there were problems - and I don’t think they were related to Mnuchin’s time tweeting (which is probably handled by a subordinate and he gives the thumbs up or down). It was the rush and trying to coordinate millions of ppl’s needs with those of 50 different states. Prob 70% - 80% done right is my guess. A lot of needy businesses got help, the amt of $ needed was a pure guess and it dried up quickly. As is the case with the media, you are going to hear only the abuses. From f2f talks with doctors throughout the US, I can testify it is helping many who need it (those who applied in time, at least).

Sorry but I don't think you got my point.

I know three people who are IC sole proprietor doing fine doing remote work (telemedicine, teleradiology). Their income "drop" was like 10% or none. My question is they got 8 weeks of proportionate net income from last year schedule C as "free money". I have a business that hasn't received ANY money. Layed of 40 w2 employees. I applied FIRST GD day. These IC applied April 10th. I didn't get PPP money (it's pending). Please reread what I wrote. You are giving weird examples. I am not IC but as I said 3 o know got PPP for no good reason and my business is real and employees 40 people, where is my money ?

You tell me what's fair. IC sole proprietor getting PPP is UNFAIR and I don't understand why are they allowed. For practical purposes IC sole proprietor who pays himself should file for unemployment but here they are barely a drop in income getting 8 weeks worth of free money.

Please tell me why I am wrong in this interpretation. And no, plenty of businesses didn't get money. as I mentioned , Comerica bank has YET to take application. Think about that.

It's not media. My f2f has been of disappointment.

[formerly_cn]

an IC is not receiving a 50-60k check. Max allowed is $8333x2 months. Maybe a little more if you’re paying for rent which many are not.

Incorrect. IC sole proprietor received/eligible for net 8 weeks income on schedule C. Three people I know got substantial $

[formerly_cn]

If it wasn't rushed then many of the businesses this was intended to help would have gone under. This wasn't something that they could take their time on. In general, I prefer less government than more but I was impressed they got this done so fast. As with all things, perfect is the enemy of good.

And I know many more that abused it. Indo commend government for rolling this out. But abuse is unreal and doubly so when I am left hanging dry despite applying very early.

Many bsuienss have gone under because SBA handed out checks to undeserving businesses with access / connections without actually verifying need. Checking off a box makes not a need.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ComericaB...78086665027584

It WAS rushed. Advance 1k per employee emergency money, but should have taken time to approve 2.5 x revence loan with care. Do you have a business with multiple employees relying on PPP ? No then you don't understand this and didn't got throguh a bank to really know the ground zero.