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  • #46




    “The whole concept of FI/RE relies on you either hating your job now or hating it later.”

     

    I think this is a false dichotomy. You can like it now and hate it later, and you can like it now and like it later but like another job or lifestyle better.
    Click to expand...


    You're probably right. I suspect a lot of people are in my boat with this. Given my current portfolio and assuming I sold WCI today for what's it's very conservatively worth (10 months profit), I could retire today on an income of something like $60K a year. So that's choice # 1. But there are also other options, and thus far, my wife and I have chosen one of them at every opportunity.

    Choice # 1: Retire on $60K

    Choice # 2: Keep going full-bore making as much money as possible without burning out. Save as much of that money as possible to facilitate an early retirement at some larger income than $60K

    Choice # 3: Keep going full-bore making as much money as possible without burning out. Spend a whole bunch of it. Retire on some amount larger than $60K at some later date.

    Choice # 4: Cut back on work/ change work such that you enjoy it more. Do more of the work you enjoy. Still save quite a bit but also spend quite a bit more, anticipating an eventual retirement at some amount larger than $60K.

    I could probably go on with other options. This last couple of years we've been on choice # 3, but making arrangements to go to choice # 4 by the end of the summer. Not only am I dropping 3-4 shifts a month, but this is the last month I plan to work the overnight shifts. That makes work a lot more fun for me.

    Next year the choices will be different. Perhaps choice # 1 at that point will be retiring on $70K a year. But the point is I think most people find working to either have more to spend now, or to have a retirement with more to spend later, more attractive than retiring on what they could retire on right now. FIRE generally requires not only a lot of savings and investing, but also limiting your lifestyle in significant ways. Only the individual can decide where that trade off is best made. For now, I guess we'd rather go get Broadway tickets, buy some new furniture, fix up the house, stuff more in the kids' college accounts and keep putting gas in the boat than quit going to work.
    Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

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    • #47




      Working for an NGO is more of a passion/charity type thing that I would consider retired and furthermore charitable.

      Click to expand...


      yet, there are people that do this type of work for their career, and people that have other careers that pay less....and while they're doing those careers, they're not "retired".  Hence, retired is whenever you are financially free to stop doing what your were doing, and start doing the next thing, with no restrictions placed by other peoples' values as to what is "work" and what is not.

      Comment


      • #48







        Working for an NGO is more of a passion/charity type thing that I would consider retired and furthermore charitable.

        Click to expand…


        yet, there are people that do this type of work for their career, and people that have other careers that pay less….and while they’re doing those careers, they’re not “retired”.  Hence, retired is whenever you are financially free to stop doing what your were doing, and start doing the next thing, with no restrictions placed by other peoples’ values as to what is “work” and what is not.
        Click to expand...


        that doesnt make any sense. just because people make crappy wages and work those jobs doesnt make them financially independent. Thats about as non sequitur as it gets. There are also plenty of doctors that are filthy rich and have no need to work, I am not one them, those things are not related.

        Comment


        • #49
          We might need to put a little more distance between FI     and     RE.

          The FI goal is your annual expenses times a multiplier (25 for the 4% WR, 33.3 for 3%).  Financial independence allows one to decide how work fits into his or her life, if at all. But you certainly don't have to Retire Early once you hit FI.

          I definitely don't hate my job; I wrote all about all the things I'll miss when I retire in a post today, and I felt some pretty strong emotions when writing it. If I did hate it, I maybe would have gone the RE route by now. Earlier in the thread, I said I'm aiming for 50x expenses, and I can't say for sure what I'll do then. But at that point, my investments (yes, index investments) will return as much or more in an average year than a demanding full-time job. Unless I really love the job, or my ego demands it (it doesn't), I think I'll have a hard time coming up with good reasons to stay.

           

          Comment


          • #50




            We might need to put a little more distance between FI     and     RE.

            The FI goal is your annual expenses times a multiplier (25 for the 4% WR, 33.3 for 3%).  Financial independence allows one to decide how work fits into his or her life, if at all. But you certainly don’t have to Retire Early once you hit FI.

            I definitely don’t hate my job; I wrote all about all the things I’ll miss when I retire in a post today, and I felt some pretty strong emotions when writing it. If I did hate it, I maybe would have gone the RE route by now. Earlier in the thread, I said I’m aiming for 50x expenses, and I can’t say for sure what I’ll do then. But at that point, my investments (yes, index investments) will return as much or more in an average year than a demanding full-time job. Unless I really love the job, or my ego demands it (it doesn’t), I think I’ll have a hard time coming up with good reasons to stay.

             
            Click to expand...


            Oh BS. You know deep down inside you don't need 50X. If you really hated what you were doing you would punch out long before 50X. 50X is a 2% withdrawal rate. A 2% withdrawal rate means that on average you die with something like 10 times as much as you retired with. A 4% withdrawal rate on average dies with 2.8X what they retired with.
            Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

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            • #51
              Here's the other thing about this whole entrepreneurship vs practice medicine, save 20% and invest it in index funds.

              There are plenty of entrepreneurial ventures that don't give you an income anywhere near what a physician makes. It seems really dumb to spend a bunch of time starting and running a business that pays you $50K a year when you can make 5-10 times that as a doc. That was a dilemma I had with WCI for quite a while. I could bust my butt and make $2K a month, or I could go work an extra shift in the ED. You have to be quite a successful entrepreneur to have an income anywhere near what you can get as a doc.

              It's not just starting a business.

              It's not just starting a business that makes money.

              It's starting a business that gives you a better return on your time than working as a doc. That's not very easy to do. It requires either a very profitable business, or a very passive one.
              Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

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              • #52




                Here’s the other thing about this whole entrepreneurship vs practice medicine, save 20% and invest it in index funds.

                There are plenty of entrepreneurial ventures that don’t give you an income anywhere near what a physician makes. It seems really dumb to spend a bunch of time starting and running a business that pays you $50K a year when you can make 5-10 times that as a doc. That was a dilemma I had with WCI for quite a while. I could bust my butt and make $2K a month, or I could go work an extra shift in the ED. You have to be quite a successful entrepreneur to have an income anywhere near what you can get as a doc.

                It’s not just starting a business.

                It’s not just starting a business that makes money.

                It’s starting a business that gives you a better return on your time than working as a doc. That’s not very easy to do. It requires either a very profitable business, or a very passive one.
                Click to expand...


                I guess that if the earning and accumulation of money is the goal, then you are correct. Doing ER work for you or IR work for me is the most efficient, low risk, high reward, relatively effortless means to obtain more of it. Some reach a point where it may be about more than stacking Benjamins, however. Other issues may come into play--interests, philosophies, and abilities morph over time, boredom or burn out may set in, family needs and circumstances may evolve, the job itself changes slightly with every passing season, etc.

                Speaking for me, at 50, I am quite a bit different than I was when I started practicing at 30, and the job description is quite a bit different, too. We were well-matched with one another in 1996, but today, less so. I would go as far to say that I doubt that the 1996 me would want or choose to be doing the job that the 2016 me does. Is that not reason enough to go about about finding something else to do, especially in the context that there is a high degree of FI? And more specifically to your point, if starting a business that earns $50k/year satisfies other needs or wants and or gives back in some other way, why not?

                Comment


                • #53







                  We might need to put a little more distance between FI     and     RE.

                  The FI goal is your annual expenses times a multiplier (25 for the 4% WR, 33.3 for 3%).  Financial independence allows one to decide how work fits into his or her life, if at all. But you certainly don’t have to Retire Early once you hit FI.

                  I definitely don’t hate my job; I wrote all about all the things I’ll miss when I retire in a post today, and I felt some pretty strong emotions when writing it. If I did hate it, I maybe would have gone the RE route by now. Earlier in the thread, I said I’m aiming for 50x expenses, and I can’t say for sure what I’ll do then. But at that point, my investments (yes, index investments) will return as much or more in an average year than a demanding full-time job. Unless I really love the job, or my ego demands it (it doesn’t), I think I’ll have a hard time coming up with good reasons to stay.

                   
                  Click to expand…


                  Oh BS. You know deep down inside you don’t need 50X. If you really hated what you were doing you would punch out long before 50X. 50X is a 2% withdrawal rate. A 2% withdrawal rate means that on average you die with something like 10 times as much as you retired with. A 4% withdrawal rate on average dies with 2.8X what they retired with.
                  Click to expand...


                  Exactly. I don't need 50x and the ultrasafe withdrawal rate associated with it, and I could punch out anytime, as we are approaching 30x with the recent comeback the markets have staged, along with continued additions thanks to a good job.

                  50x, or at least 40x (as I've written in my IPS), is a point where I plan to re-evaluate if I want to continue working a full-time job, or any job in the medical field. It's rewarding, it's fulfilling, and I'm proud of the work I do. But, as others have said, there is a lot of other things I might rather do with my time.

                  Currently, the portfolio grows more by my biweekly additions than my investment returns. When that fails to be the case in a typical year, I think that's the time to do some more soul searching. There are certainly aspects of the job that I don't love. Your post on Using a Venn Diagram to Decrease Burnout has ideas that I might implement as I approach the goal. I'm not sure my job has as much flexibility as I would like, though.

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                  • #54










                    Working for an NGO is more of a passion/charity type thing that I would consider retired and furthermore charitable.

                    Click to expand…


                    yet, there are people that do this type of work for their career, and people that have other careers that pay less….and while they’re doing those careers, they’re not “retired”.  Hence, retired is whenever you are financially free to stop doing what your were doing, and start doing the next thing, with no restrictions placed by other peoples’ values as to what is “work” and what is not.
                    Click to expand…


                    that doesnt make any sense. just because people make crappy wages and work those jobs doesnt make them financially independent. Thats about as non sequitur as it gets. There are also plenty of doctors that are filthy rich and have no need to work, I am not one them, those things are not related.
                    Click to expand...


                    Sorry, you missed my point.  My point was, you are trying to define what is and isn't retirement based upon your criteria of if a person is working or not.  In this case you said that doing one particular job was retired, and I was pointing out that there are people who do this exact same job and definitely are not retired.  My point was to show that it's up to the person doing the retiring to decide if they're retired or not, it's not up to you or anyone else.  If a person decides "I retired", they did, no matter what they keep doing with their day to day.  Money doesn't change it, hours don't change it, the difficulty doesn't change it, and the internet's opinion doesn't change it.  My point is, don't tell other people what their retirement must look like in order for them to call it retirement.  FI is a math equation, RE is a personal definition.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I actually have 96x current spending. I usually plug in double what I spend into calculators to account for unknowns like healthcare costs, LTC costs, taxes, increased travel. I still have about 48x. I am frugal now. I am working part-time and am close to saying goodbye.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        We describe it as getting to the point that you are working because you want to, not because you have to.

                        Everybody's definition of "getting there" is unique. Your personal financial plan defines and clarifies your goals, the tools at your disposal, and the process for reaching them.
                        Working to protect good doctors from bad advisors. Fox & Co CPAs, Fox & Co Wealth Mgmt. 270-247-6087

                        Comment


                        • #57













                          Working for an NGO is more of a passion/charity type thing that I would consider retired and furthermore charitable.

                          Click to expand…


                          yet, there are people that do this type of work for their career, and people that have other careers that pay less….and while they’re doing those careers, they’re not “retired”.  Hence, retired is whenever you are financially free to stop doing what your were doing, and start doing the next thing, with no restrictions placed by other peoples’ values as to what is “work” and what is not.
                          Click to expand…


                          that doesnt make any sense. just because people make crappy wages and work those jobs doesnt make them financially independent. Thats about as non sequitur as it gets. There are also plenty of doctors that are filthy rich and have no need to work, I am not one them, those things are not related.
                          Click to expand…


                          Sorry, you missed my point.  My point was, you are trying to define what is and isn’t retirement based upon your criteria of if a person is working or not.  In this case you said that doing one particular job was retired, and I was pointing out that there are people who do this exact same job and definitely are not retired.  My point was to show that it’s up to the person doing the retiring to decide if they’re retired or not, it’s not up to you or anyone else.  If a person decides “I retired”, they did, no matter what they keep doing with their day to day.  Money doesn’t change it, hours don’t change it, the difficulty doesn’t change it, and the internet’s opinion doesn’t change it.  My point is, don’t tell other people what their retirement must look like in order for them to call it retirement.  FI is a math equation, RE is a personal definition.
                          Click to expand...


                          I already told you that your argument made no sense, and therefore did not try to press any generalized definition out there, you're putting words in my mouth. No I didnt miss your point, you moved the goal posts to make your point which defeats the purpose.  One can literally make any point they want with such tactics. I specifically stated that the question was nebulous and terrible, leading down this path and to not to take it too seriously. However, the example I did give was based specifically on what you mentioned, not a general case scenario of what was "working" as that is fruitless. Only from the 2 person specific scenario you mentioned was considered, that is retiring from your prior profession to do something else, or changing the capacity in which you do it in a significant fashion because you would rather do so. There is a huge difference there. There is no need to be overly pedantic or sensitive. Clearly, there is some form of retirement and while its a spectrum and difficult to pin down, we can try to define it. No one was telling you what your retirement had to look like. Your attempted link of these things was illogical and didnt make any sense.

                          In your example of what constitutes retirement, I can decide today that I "am retired" yet go back to work on monday and not change a single thing, because I simply decided it was so. Would I be allowed to draw down my 401k/IRA that I am still contributing to with earned income? Hopefully, this illustrates why people at least attempt to define for them personally a more functional definition of retirement. Since it doesnt serve any purpose or help to clarify anything to define it in this way, its pretty useless. This is why many people say they are "retired from" something, and not necessarily retired, which we all seem to understand just fine.

                           

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            This doesn't usually fit well into the sentiment on most FI  blogs and forums, but are there not any other docs out there who are doing this maybe more so to pass on a sizable estate to their kids rather than retire early or live it up in retirement?  I know I'm in the extreme minority here, but saving for my kids sake is the major motivating factor for me.

                            I know me and the wife will be a happy with a humble place near the beach, a little traveling but nothing extravagant, a discounted cruise here and there.

                            But the thought of really giving my kids an advantage in life, being able to organize and pay for a few nice family vacations each with all the kids and grandkids, helping the kids with their first home purchases or grad school costs.  That's what makes me smile.  Part of this is teaching them to be disciplined smart savers in their own right.

                            Now the trick is still instilling a work ethic in them to make it on their own (even if they will have help along the way).

                             

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              You are not alone TheGipper. I have a kid forthcoming and just the way I was brought up by my parents, my values and my wife, I am working towards leaving my kid (hopefully kids) alot in inheritance when I'm gone. I have found this behavior in the immigrant community.

                              Comment


                              • #60







                                Here’s the other thing about this whole entrepreneurship vs practice medicine, save 20% and invest it in index funds.

                                There are plenty of entrepreneurial ventures that don’t give you an income anywhere near what a physician makes. It seems really dumb to spend a bunch of time starting and running a business that pays you $50K a year when you can make 5-10 times that as a doc. That was a dilemma I had with WCI for quite a while. I could bust my butt and make $2K a month, or I could go work an extra shift in the ED. You have to be quite a successful entrepreneur to have an income anywhere near what you can get as a doc.

                                It’s not just starting a business.

                                It’s not just starting a business that makes money.

                                It’s starting a business that gives you a better return on your time than working as a doc. That’s not very easy to do. It requires either a very profitable business, or a very passive one.
                                Click to expand…


                                I guess that if the earning and accumulation of money is the goal, then you are correct. Doing ER work for you or IR work for me is the most efficient, low risk, high reward, relatively effortless means to obtain more of it. Some reach a point where it may be about more than stacking Benjamins, however. Other issues may come into play–interests, philosophies, and abilities morphs over time, boredom or burn out may set in, family needs and circumstances may evolve, the job itself changes slightly with every passing season, etc.

                                Speaking for me, at 50, I am quite a bit different than I was when I started practicing at 30, and the job description is quite a bit different, too. We were well-matched with one another in 1996, but today, less so. I would go as far to say that I doubt that the 1996 me would want or choose to be doing the job that the 2016 me does. Is that not reason enough to go about about finding something else to do, especially in the context that there is a high degree of FI? And more specifically to your point, if starting a business that earns $50k/year satisfies other needs or wants and or gives back in some other way, why not?
                                Click to expand...


                                Very well said Vagabond. Also kudos to you on a 20! year career in IR. Man, I've seen those guys come in middle of the night to embo stuff when I was a resident. Ridic. I can see how that gets old. Also my Rad friends have told me how the field has just changed: More work for less money.

                                 

                                Anyways, great thoughts. You are wrapping up what I have been trying to argue/say all this time. Besides, WCI is coming from a secured partnership position in small town in Utah. Major cities where PPs are facing pressures is a much tenuous proposition. I think retinadoc said something to the effect of how he has seen opthalmologist jobs for 90K/year. Outrageous.

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