Physicians Are Financially Illiterate

[Zaphod]

beagler wrote:

A flip side to “physicians are … illiterate” is “physicians are over-confident”. You name the field aviation, investing, etc. We are famous for being over-confident in our knowledge and decision making.

We feel like we are smarter and able to master things easily. We have the same emotions and fall victim to the same poor decision making traps just like everyone else. With our egos and larger dollars to play with, when we do fail it’s harder and bigger.

If we were the take the average technical financial discussion on this board over to bogleheads, i suspect plenty of holes would be poked into our seemingly solid financial knowledge.

A bit of humility would serve us all well.

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There is an element of overconfidence, but I think everyone has identified that already. A part that is usually overlooked but maybe even more damaging is our experience and comfort level making life/death level decisions. It is easy for anyone to become overconfident about finance stuff, and indeed happens a lot. Where docs differ is they actually have experience and a high level of comfort with making a decision to act with a lot on the line, and a larger amount of money with which to do so.

Whereas someone else may commit a small amount of capital and also not be as strong in their decision making process will have a lot less to lose and a great deal more fear once done.

Not sure what you mean by technical, but dont think much of what is discussed (here or there) comes down to much more than personal opinion and preferences in reality.

[RogueDadMD]

The average physician doesn't need to be as smart as they actually are or think they are to do the thing that gets them ripped off the most -- select and stock market investments without paying someone an ungodly fee.

As much time as I spend teaching people to learn a few basics so they don't HAVE to go to an advisor, I recognize and still tell people they still need professional advice in many instances.

Paying 1-2% in AUM fees for index funds (what they've should be in) is awful. Paying for other things makes sense.

There are tons of people on this forum and Bogleheads who know far than me about finance. I freely admit that. But the average doctor having money issues isn't on these forums.

[beagler]

A flip side to "physicians are ... illiterate" is "physicians are over-confident". You name the field aviation, investing, etc. We are famous for being over-confident in our knowledge and decision making.

We feel like we are smarter and able to master things easily. We have the same emotions and fall victim to the same poor decision making traps just like everyone else. With our egos and larger dollars to play with, when we do fail it's harder and bigger.

If we were the take the average technical financial discussion on this board over to bogleheads, i suspect plenty of holes would be poked into our seemingly solid financial knowledge.

A bit of humility would serve us all well.

[Hatton]

I rented a car in Edinburgh with some friends when I was about 25 and drove to St. Andrews and up the east coast through Aberdeen to Nairn where one of my friends had a relative.  We then went through Inverness and saw Loch Ness and drove through the highlands.  Scenic weekend.

[Kamban]

hatton1 wrote:

Those old buildings are ST Andrews the town.  It was so cold when I was there that we retreated into one of the pubs to warm up.

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Good choice.

All those towns facing the North Sea are cold. Aberdeen was positively cold and miserable with howling winds, but boomed due to jobs from the North Sea rigs. And that is where medical jobs were easy to get.

[RogueDadMD]

I was there for 3 days -- friend of mine got married there. Beautiful town.

[Hatton]

Vagabond MD wrote:

hatton1 wrote:

Those old buildings are ST Andrews the town.  It was so cold when I was there that we retreated into one of the pubs to warm up.

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The way I play golf, I would be making a hasty retreat no matter the conditions.

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I have been to St. Andrews twice and I don't even golf☺️

[VagabondMD]

hatton1 wrote:

Those old buildings are ST Andrews the town.  It was so cold when I was there that we retreated into one of the pubs to warm up.

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The way I play golf, I would be making a hasty retreat no matter the conditions.

[Hatton]

Those old buildings are ST Andrews the town.  It was so cold when I was there that we retreated into one of the pubs to warm up.

[RogueDadMD]

Rogue Dad, M.D. wrote:

Attached is a photo of a famous bridge and some old buildings.

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Whoops -- picture was too big. Let's see if this worked.

[RogueDadMD]

Vagabond MD wrote:

Perhaps golf lessons should also be part of the medical school curriculum, too. I suck at golf (stopped playing many years ago), and it no doubt cost me countless referrals.

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I also suck at golf, but I got to play at St. Andrews last month.  I played on the beginner course since it's been so long, but it's a public course so was able to just walk around The Old Course while others were playing.  Attached is a photo of a famous bridge and some old buildings.

I finished delivering the next iteration of my two-part finance talk today to our IM/peds residents today.  We're sending out surveys to obtain feedback (as we did last year), but I think they were both well received.

This is given during their regular noon conference time -- I don't know whether to say it's "required" -- overall attendance to all their seminars is monitored and on the peds side they have to attend a certain % of them, but they are not specifically required to attend any individual lecture.

I don't think we'll settle the debate on what extent of this needs to be built into the curriculum -- the desire is certainly there from the trainees, and our residency directors are supportive of it at the moment.

[VagabondMD]

Perhaps golf lessons should also be part of the medical school curriculum, too. I suck at golf (stopped playing many years ago), and it no doubt cost me countless referrals.

And cooking class, too. Preparing nutritious meals at home is not only good for your pocket book but also for your psyche and overall well being.

[q-school]

Aren't most physicians eventually fine financially? They may be right.
It may take some longer than others, especially if they choose a lavish lifestyle. But that's a choice.

Should they also have marital counseling?
It appears that divorce may be the biggest risk to financial independence.

[CM]

Gamma Knives wrote:

Unfortunately, the attitude in medical school (in my experience, n = 1) seems to be don’t worry about money; you will be fine.

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N = 2.

I think about money often now, but it didn't cross my mind until very late in med school when I began to date women who had some. Then I thought about it a little. Still, I would have skipped any personal finance offerings as a student or resident. It wasn't until I began earning an attending paycheck and paying off loans that I became interested.

Nevertheless, everything did turn out fine, even with many career detours.

 

[Gamma Knives]

When in medical school I often felt like discussing money was taboo. The vibe was very much if you care about money you are impure and you should only be a physician for altruism. Should finance be core curriculum? I would say no. People will learn if they want to learn. When you force students to take a course many will not get value as they will see it as another hoop to jump through. However, I think medical schools should try to make more resources available to students. There should be courses or other resource on students loans, physician reimbursement, contract negotiation, and so on. I would have signed up for those. I bet most medical schools could get people to teach these course without increasing their costs. I would consider contributing to such a course without expecting to be paid by my local medical school.

Unfortunately, the attitude in medical school (in my experience, n = 1) seems to be don't worry about money; you will be fine. This attitude gets physicians into financial trouble.