Are you in the top 1%

[Hatton]

Complete_newbie wrote:

WealthyDoc wrote:

hatton1 wrote:

Well if 4-7 mill means welcome to the top 1% then I guess I made it.  I certainly don’t feel rich however.

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I hear ya.  There are always richer people, no matter where you are on the wealth scale.  Per Thorp’s analysis (which was pretty rigorous) that net worth value of 1% is the 4M level.  That is definitely obtainable for late-middle or end career for a specialist who made good money choices.  That is the target for FI for many of us since it would generate 160K at the 4% SWR.  Most doctors have no hope of reaching those higher levels discussed on my blog post unless they hit a non-clinical jackpot with a patent, biotech start-up, VC, etc.

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Sure except the time value is not taken into account or given proper weight. As you mentioned, attainable for late-middle or end career specialist. 

Point I’m trying to make is that the accumulation for an MD/preofessional or level 1 (see above) takes time. Which really is a big “drag”. Enjoying 4 million in 60’s < In 40s.

 

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Newbie, you want to wake up "rich" tomorrow.  The only way for that to happen is to marry a rich girl with no prenup or to hit powerball.  This site is mostly about realistic plans to slowly get rich.  This is very achievable even for you.  Btw people in their fourties and fifties enjoy their money immensely.

[StarTrekDoc]

Vagabond MD wrote:

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What’s also interesting is that if you hit $4M in your 40’s, you still may not have enough to hang it up, assuming that you have children to raise, educate, and launch. My retirement target was $4M, which we hit a few years ago, but our ongoing expenses, especially related to the kids, were such that it would be way too risky to stop working at that point. So $4M in your 60’s may be better than $4M in your 40’s, in a convoluted fashion.

Click to expand...

I'll take our $4M and 40s over the latter.  Yes, there's a degree of uncertainty still beyond the fully funded 529 like post grad and 'launch' but made clear that our financial purse strings don't go beyond college IF THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE ADULTS.

Then again, our upcoming Tesla Model 3 splurges will set us back a little too

[Complete_newbie]

hatton1 wrote:

Complete_newbie wrote:

WealthyDoc wrote:

hatton1 wrote:

Well if 4-7 mill means welcome to the top 1% then I guess I made it.  I certainly don’t feel rich however.

Click to expand…

I hear ya.  There are always richer people, no matter where you are on the wealth scale.  Per Thorp’s analysis (which was pretty rigorous) that net worth value of 1% is the 4M level.  That is definitely obtainable for late-middle or end career for a specialist who made good money choices.  That is the target for FI for many of us since it would generate 160K at the 4% SWR.  Most doctors have no hope of reaching those higher levels discussed on my blog post unless they hit a non-clinical jackpot with a patent, biotech start-up, VC, etc.

Click to expand…

Sure except the time value is not taken into account or given proper weight. As you mentioned, attainable for late-middle or end career specialist. 

Point I’m trying to make is that the accumulation for an MD/preofessional or level 1 (see above) takes time. Which really is a big “drag”. Enjoying 4 million in 60’s < In 40s.

 

Click to expand…

Newbie, you want to wake up “rich” tomorrow.  The only way for that to happen is to marry a rich girl with no prenup or to hit powerball.  This site is mostly about realistic plans to slowly get rich.  This is very achievable even for you.  Btw people in their fourties and fifties enjoy their money immensely.

Click to expand...

not sure how you got that idea. I actually enjoy the process of earning money etc. Tough I would say there is n > 1 who would like to wake up rich on this site. Believe it or not that doesn't interest me.

I was merely pointing out that at our "level one" wealth accumulation (or NW growth) is a slow process and takes time. This is a function of good not outstanding income and average risk taking vs aggressive investing principles.

Ditto on this site about getting rich slowly.

[Complete_newbie]

StarTrekDoc wrote:

Vagabond MD wrote:

Click to expand…

What’s also interesting is that if you hit $4M in your 40’s, you still may not have enough to hang it up, assuming that you have children to raise, educate, and launch. My retirement target was $4M, which we hit a few years ago, but our ongoing expenses, especially related to the kids, were such that it would be way too risky to stop working at that point. So $4M in your 60’s may be better than $4M in your 40’s, in a convoluted fashion.

Click to expand…

I’ll take our $4M and 40s over the latter.  Yes, there’s a degree of uncertainty still beyond the fully funded 529 like post grad and ‘launch’ but made clear that our financial purse strings don’t go beyond college IF THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE ADULTS.

Then again, our upcoming Tesla Model 3 splurges will set us back a little too

Click to expand...

Startrek is proving my point.

Great point Vagabond, and thats another caveat isn't it: kids. All this calculation needs to account for time value + extra expenses in kids. Alot of FI'ers completely ignore that.

[WealthyDoc]

Vagabond MD wrote:

Complete_newbie wrote:

WealthyDoc wrote:

hatton1 wrote:

Well if 4-7 mill means welcome to the top 1% then I guess I made it.  I certainly don’t feel rich however.

Click to expand…

I hear ya.  There are always richer people, no matter where you are on the wealth scale.  Per Thorp’s analysis (which was pretty rigorous) that net worth value of 1% is the 4M level.  That is definitely obtainable for late-middle or end career for a specialist who made good money choices.  That is the target for FI for many of us since it would generate 160K at the 4% SWR.  Most doctors have no hope of reaching those higher levels discussed on my blog post unless they hit a non-clinical jackpot with a patent, biotech start-up, VC, etc.

Click to expand…

Sure except the time value is not taken into account or given proper weight. As you mentioned, attainable for late-middle or end career specialist. 

Point I’m trying to make is that the accumulation for an MD/preofessional or level 1 (see above) takes time. Which really is a big “drag”. Enjoying 4 million in 60’s < In 40s.

 

Click to expand…

What’s also interesting is that if you hit $4M in your 40’s, you still may not have enough to hang it up, assuming that you have children to raise, educate, and launch. My retirement target was $4M, which we hit a few years ago, but our ongoing expenses, especially related to the kids, were such that it would be way too risky to stop working at that point. So $4M in your 60’s may be better than $4M in your 40’s, in a convoluted fashion.

Click to expand...

I would still rather have $4M in my 40's than in my 60's!  I think I know what you are saying.... but because of the time value of money you are golden with 4M in your 40's.  Even if lifestyle creep causes some issues and you decide to keep working you will have a lot of options over the next 20 years of spending, investing, part-time work, etc.

Also, it may be an opportunity to review your spending.  Is it all essential?  160K of spending is a lot and should cover basic needs and a heck of a lot of wants.  I have kids and live on less than that, as does PoF and many others.

 

[VagabondMD]

Complete_newbie wrote:

StarTrekDoc wrote:

Vagabond MD wrote:

Click to expand…

What’s also interesting is that if you hit $4M in your 40’s, you still may not have enough to hang it up, assuming that you have children to raise, educate, and launch. My retirement target was $4M, which we hit a few years ago, but our ongoing expenses, especially related to the kids, were such that it would be way too risky to stop working at that point. So $4M in your 60’s may be better than $4M in your 40’s, in a convoluted fashion.

Click to expand…

I’ll take our $4M and 40s over the latter.  Yes, there’s a degree of uncertainty still beyond the fully funded 529 like post grad and ‘launch’ but made clear that our financial purse strings don’t go beyond college IF THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE ADULTS.

Then again, our upcoming Tesla Model 3 splurges will set us back a little too

Click to expand…

Startrek is proving my point.

Great point Vagabond, and thats another caveat isn’t it: kids. All this calculation needs to account for time value + extra expenses in kids. Alot of FI’ers completely ignore that.

Click to expand...

I totally agree that many early FIers do not make a realistic projection (if any) for children. Some may not be planning to have them. Kids are really expensive! When you see the bills and requests, it is hard to ignore.

[VagabondMD]

WealthyDoc wrote:

Vagabond MD wrote:

Complete_newbie wrote:

WealthyDoc wrote:

hatton1 wrote:

Well if 4-7 mill means welcome to the top 1% then I guess I made it.  I certainly don’t feel rich however.

Click to expand…

I hear ya.  There are always richer people, no matter where you are on the wealth scale.  Per Thorp’s analysis (which was pretty rigorous) that net worth value of 1% is the 4M level.  That is definitely obtainable for late-middle or end career for a specialist who made good money choices.  That is the target for FI for many of us since it would generate 160K at the 4% SWR.  Most doctors have no hope of reaching those higher levels discussed on my blog post unless they hit a non-clinical jackpot with a patent, biotech start-up, VC, etc.

Click to expand…

Sure except the time value is not taken into account or given proper weight. As you mentioned, attainable for late-middle or end career specialist. 

Point I’m trying to make is that the accumulation for an MD/preofessional or level 1 (see above) takes time. Which really is a big “drag”. Enjoying 4 million in 60’s < In 40s.

 

Click to expand…

What’s also interesting is that if you hit $4M in your 40’s, you still may not have enough to hang it up, assuming that you have children to raise, educate, and launch. My retirement target was $4M, which we hit a few years ago, but our ongoing expenses, especially related to the kids, were such that it would be way too risky to stop working at that point. So $4M in your 60’s may be better than $4M in your 40’s, in a convoluted fashion.

Click to expand…

I would still rather have $4M in my 40’s than in my 60’s!  I think I know what you are saying…. but because of the time value of money you are golden with 4M in your 40’s.  Even if lifestyle creep causes some issues and you decide to keep working you will have a lot of options over the next 20 years of spending, investing, part-time work, etc.

Also, it may be an opportunity to review your spending.  Is it all essential?  160K of spending is a lot and should cover basic needs and a heck of a lot of wants.  I have kids and live on less than that, as does PoF and many others.

 

Click to expand...

No, of course it is not all "essential". We have chosen to spend money on some non-essential stuff, too.

[The White Coat Investor]

hatton1 wrote:

Well if 4-7 mill means welcome to the top 1% then I guess I made it.  I certainly don’t feel rich however.

Click to expand...

That makes me sad. Not that you're rich, but that you don't feel rich. Reminds me of this post:

http://evergreensmallbusiness.com/feel-rich-thanksgiving-essay/

I'm curious why you don't feel rich with a mid 7 figure net worth. Is there something else you could buy that would make you happier in some way?

Or perhaps you're just being modest and trying to remember your roots and position yourself subconsciously as "middle class like everyone else."

It's an interesting phenomenon. I run into wealthy people all the time and the vast majority "don't feel rich." Why is that? Is rich always 2X what we have?

[The White Coat Investor]

Complete_newbie wrote:

I think of it this way

1. Lowest level: your neighbors, doctors, possibly dual teachers etc – retirement account + home equity. Mostly people on this blog.

2. Next level: Making money from mony – the patels, the 2-3 small business/shop owner, or some dude who hit it big and is generating ..uh..lets say 500K in complete passive income. Wakes up, sleeps etc, makes that without doing anything active. Doctor stops working, stops earning. Not in this class (can get there with LARGE nest egg … very very few from clinical income; suppose high end specialists who started early savings can).

3. Realy F rich: That F is for filthy. Dropping dollars on expensive resturaunt like it aint a thing. 50K watch? Ferrari? Yea got that. Making lets say 2+mill a year. NW of 25 mill+

4. The real top i.e. 0.01% ers or the baby Rockafellarz: 10+ mill income. 100+ mill NW. Enough said. They own that mall your wife frequents.

5. Real real real top – ehh lets say 0.001%? These are you Zuckerberg, Musk, etc etc. Billionaires. On all the lists.

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So at what point does happiness start decreasing? Mo money mo problems.

BTW, I can assure you I can "drop dollars on an expensive restaurant like it ain't a thing" with much less than $25M. You certainly don't need $25M to buy a nice watch or even a Ferrari. I mean, I don't know much about Ferraris but this 2012 is on ebay right now for $179K. http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/252788675664?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true

The main problem with your list is it is all focused on looking upward at people with more than you. If you turn and look below you on the socioeconomic scale, you'll feel a lot better about your wealth level and might even feel rich.

I dislike the term "filthy" when combined with rich too. While I'm sure there are some rich people who are filthy, the vast majority I have met are not. It implies there is something wrong with having contributed enough value to the world that your share of it is extra large.

[Arkad]

The White Coat Investor wrote:

The main problem with your list is it is all focused on looking upward at people with more than you. If you turn and look below you on the socioeconomic scale, you’ll feel a lot better about your wealth level and might even feel rich.

Click to expand...

My point exactly.  If you are always looking at climbing higher, you have little chance of enjoying the view you have now.  Take a trip somewhere to a developing country and you will probably feel differently.  99.999% of the world would be very happy to trade places with just about anyone on this site.  That is not to say it did not take a lot of work to get there but it took a fair amount of luck too.  Being born at the right time and in the right place is probably a much bigger factor than anything else you can do.

[Complete_newbie]

The White Coat Investor wrote:

Complete_newbie wrote:

I think of it this way

1. Lowest level: your neighbors, doctors, possibly dual teachers etc – retirement account + home equity. Mostly people on this blog.

2. Next level: Making money from mony – the patels, the 2-3 small business/shop owner, or some dude who hit it big and is generating ..uh..lets say 500K in complete passive income. Wakes up, sleeps etc, makes that without doing anything active. Doctor stops working, stops earning. Not in this class (can get there with LARGE nest egg … very very few from clinical income; suppose high end specialists who started early savings can).

3. Realy F rich: That F is for filthy. Dropping dollars on expensive resturaunt like it aint a thing. 50K watch? Ferrari? Yea got that. Making lets say 2+mill a year. NW of 25 mill+

4. The real top i.e. 0.01% ers or the baby Rockafellarz: 10+ mill income. 100+ mill NW. Enough said. They own that mall your wife frequents.

5. Real real real top – ehh lets say 0.001%? These are you Zuckerberg, Musk, etc etc. Billionaires. On all the lists.

Click to expand…

So at what point does happiness start decreasing? Mo money mo problems.

BTW, I can assure you I can “drop dollars on an expensive restaurant like it ain’t a thing” with much less than $25M. You certainly don’t need $25M to buy a nice watch or even a Ferrari. I mean, I don’t know much about Ferraris but this 2012 is on ebay right now for $179K. http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/252788675664?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true

The main problem with your list is it is all focused on looking upward at people with more than you. If you turn and look below you on the socioeconomic scale, you’ll feel a lot better about your wealth level and might even feel rich.

I dislike the term “filthy” when combined with rich too. While I’m sure there are some rich people who are filthy, the vast majority I have met are not. It implies there is something wrong with having contributed enough value to the world that your share of it is extra large.

Click to expand...

I will safely assume this is continuation of tit for tat.

My list is just something I made up at the time of posting. I didn't comment on happiness so not sure why the association. I haven't done randomized controlled trial to figure that out. Be my guest and enlighten.

You can drop whatever, but ask hatton how she'll feel about dropping whatever with 4M. I suspect you will get your answer as to why she doesn't "feel" rich. Yes ferraris can be 179K but also can run 1+ million. You'd buy it WCI? if so then great. I meant the top end Ferraris somewhere on this list: http://www.worldstopmost.com/2017-2018-2019-2020/automobiles/top-10-most-expensive-ferrari-cars-in-the-world/ You'll need 25 million for that no?

"My" list (I guess it is mine now - Registered) was just a list, I didn't write it with any intention unless to stratify the levels the way I think about it. It does have levels right? look at the lower levels then. Who said look at the billionaire list. I feel perfectly fine just typing that list; there is always some one better looking, faster, stronger, richer than you. If curious, I look up to the billionaire not for their money, but for their impact in the world.

Sorry I thought Filthy meant "A lot". Guess it means dirty. Not sure if that is how people perceive that usage, may be i'll figure out proper etymology.

 

 

[Complete_newbie]

Arkad wrote:

The White Coat Investor wrote:

The main problem with your list is it is all focused on looking upward at people with more than you. If you turn and look below you on the socioeconomic scale, you’ll feel a lot better about your wealth level and might even feel rich. 

Click to expand…

My point exactly.  If you are always looking at climbing higher, you have little chance of enjoying the view you have now.  Take a trip somewhere to a developing country and you will probably feel differently.  99.999% of the world would be very happy to trade places with just about anyone on this site.  That is not to say it did not take a lot of work to get there but it took a fair amount of luck too.  Being born at the right time and in the right place is probably a much bigger factor than anything else you can do.

Click to expand...

Gonna ignore most of this as I answered it above, but yes, most on the list I believe are family conglomerates etc etc, but there are exceptions specially in Tech, where ideas can span giant IPOs and founders cash out.

[TheGipper]

The White Coat Investor wrote:

hatton1 wrote:

Well if 4-7 mill means welcome to the top 1% then I guess I made it.  I certainly don’t feel rich however.

Click to expand…

That makes me sad. Not that you’re rich, but that you don’t feel rich. Reminds me of this post:

http://evergreensmallbusiness.com/feel-rich-thanksgiving-essay/

I’m curious why you don’t feel rich with a mid 7 figure net worth. Is there something else you could buy that would make you happier in some way?

Or perhaps you’re just being modest and trying to remember your roots and position yourself subconsciously as “middle class like everyone else.”

It’s an interesting phenomenon. I run into wealthy people all the time and the vast majority “don’t feel rich.” Why is that? Is rich always 2X what we have?

Click to expand...

Exactly.  "Feeling rich" and perhaps happiness in general is relative, incremental, and fleeting.  That is why self-made successful small business owners are some of the happiest lot.  Becoming a little more successful and rich each year.  And why lottery winners often end up depressed and suicidal.

[VagabondMD]

I never really liked the question asked in the title of this thread. Comparing one's self to others elicits two emotions: one is to make you feel good/proud/boastful and the other to make you feel resentful/jealous/disappointed. The majority of people look up, not down, and will tend to feel worse.

Comparing to others is not beneficial to the bigger picture, which is to set your own goals and place yourself on the path to achieve them. In the setting of physicians, these goals may be professional, family, athletic, travel, hobby, musical, artistic, charity, spiritual, environmental, etc. Most of us will never have to truly worry about feeding, clothing, and sheltering ourselves.

It really does not matter a lick whether you are more or less wealthy than the other guy, and the sooner one learns this, the more content one can be in life. I do not care that my professional partner, who is my age and makes exactly the same income as I do, drives a Porsche and bought his house from an NFL quarterback any more than he cares that I drive a Prius and look forward to downsizing to an apartment.

[Hatton]

Sorry WCI if I made you think by my comment that I did not feel rich you thought I meant that I was still striving to be richer.  I actually feel like I have enough.  I meant that I don't feel like I am a 1%er.  I am making a conscious effort to live modestly.