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Another Rebuttal to the Buy A Nice Car blog post

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  • #16







    Technology has certainly improved rollover risk dramatically and we’re all very thankful for that.

    Looking at the data it is very true, from the IIHS, that overall death rates for SUV as a vehicle type is quite low from that link you cited.

    But if you look at those quotes they do not address the fact that SUVs still do rollover much more so than cars. Again physics. (I don’t see how our current level of technology can break the law of physics/equations….) Those quotes specifically tout the low death rate, which is true…and the lower rollover risk than before…which is also true.

    But the IIHS states this on their own website regarding rollover risk for SUV:

    source: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/rollover-crashes/qanda
    Are rollovers more common for SUVs than for other vehicles?




    Rollovers are much more common for SUVs and pickups than for cars, and more common for SUVs than for pickups. In 2014, 50 percent of SUV occupants killed in crashes were in vehicles that rolled over. In comparison, 44 percent of deaths in pickups and 22 percent of deaths in cars were in rollovers.

    Pickups and SUVs tend to be involved in rollovers more frequently than cars largely due to the physical differences of these vehicles. SUVs and pickups are taller than cars and have greater ground clearance, causing their mass to be distributed higher off the road relative to the width of the vehicle. Additional passengers and cargo can increase the center of gravity even more. Other things being equal, a vehicle with a higher center of gravity is more prone to roll over than a lower-riding vehicle. 2

    Driver behavior may contribute to the increased rollover involvement rate of SUVs and pickups. Pickups and SUVs are more likely than cars to be driven on rural roads, where rollovers occur more frequently. Lower belt use among pickup occupants 3 means they are more likely to be seriously or fatally injured when rollovers occur.”




     

    The sheer number of fatalities by pure number are higher due to more people buying them these days but the rates are lower.
    How has the number of rollover fatalities changed over time?

    The number of fatalities in rollover crashes on U.S. roads increased as SUVs became more popular. However, the newest SUVs have much lower rollover fatality rates than earlier models and even have lower rates than the newest cars. For 1-3-year-old passenger vehicles of all types, the rollover fatality rate has declined from 27 driver deaths per million registered vehicles in 2000 to 6 deaths per million in 2014. “

     

    Looks like rollovers overall are a small % of crash types, about 2%, but they are quite deadly. And with the ESC the cars that STILL rollover are probably more severe/harsh in their circumstances leading to likely more serious crashes. Definitely a safe behavior is to always wear seatbelts and drive safely with proper maintenance/tires and not to always trust technology to save you.

    In general given the rarity of the rollovers, even though SUVs are more likely to do so than cars, and given that in other crashes SUVs will fare better I do see a logical reason to go for SUVs rather than smaller/lighter cars. Whether it’s worth it financially is up to the buyer. I myself am very intrigued by this and I’ll likely look at SUVs as a potential vehicle type in my future car buying list.
    Click to expand…


    You’ll settle on an SUV, its just the overall best mix of features and safety. Picking even the one spot that its not as good at is way overshadowed by the relative infrequency of that event. Nothings perfect. There are lots of reasonably priced SUVs, you dont have to have the biggest or a Lexus, its more the mass that matters and Im sure Toyotas are very similar to their Lexus counterparts.
    Click to expand...


    Indeed. Perhaps smaller sized SUVs would be viable as well? CR-V or RAV4. Though of course a Toyota Sequoia/Land Cruiser is always a possibility. Defnitely would go for a Toyota Land Cruiser as it is essentially same as a Lexus LX. Though the sticker price on Land Cruiser is still quite a bit. Will definitely need to look in the used market for these

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    • #17










      Technology has certainly improved rollover risk dramatically and we’re all very thankful for that.

      Looking at the data it is very true, from the IIHS, that overall death rates for SUV as a vehicle type is quite low from that link you cited.

      But if you look at those quotes they do not address the fact that SUVs still do rollover much more so than cars. Again physics. (I don’t see how our current level of technology can break the law of physics/equations….) Those quotes specifically tout the low death rate, which is true…and the lower rollover risk than before…which is also true.

      But the IIHS states this on their own website regarding rollover risk for SUV:

      source: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/rollover-crashes/qanda
      Are rollovers more common for SUVs than for other vehicles?




      Rollovers are much more common for SUVs and pickups than for cars, and more common for SUVs than for pickups. In 2014, 50 percent of SUV occupants killed in crashes were in vehicles that rolled over. In comparison, 44 percent of deaths in pickups and 22 percent of deaths in cars were in rollovers.

      Pickups and SUVs tend to be involved in rollovers more frequently than cars largely due to the physical differences of these vehicles. SUVs and pickups are taller than cars and have greater ground clearance, causing their mass to be distributed higher off the road relative to the width of the vehicle. Additional passengers and cargo can increase the center of gravity even more. Other things being equal, a vehicle with a higher center of gravity is more prone to roll over than a lower-riding vehicle. 2

      Driver behavior may contribute to the increased rollover involvement rate of SUVs and pickups. Pickups and SUVs are more likely than cars to be driven on rural roads, where rollovers occur more frequently. Lower belt use among pickup occupants 3 means they are more likely to be seriously or fatally injured when rollovers occur.”




       

      The sheer number of fatalities by pure number are higher due to more people buying them these days but the rates are lower.
      How has the number of rollover fatalities changed over time?

      The number of fatalities in rollover crashes on U.S. roads increased as SUVs became more popular. However, the newest SUVs have much lower rollover fatality rates than earlier models and even have lower rates than the newest cars. For 1-3-year-old passenger vehicles of all types, the rollover fatality rate has declined from 27 driver deaths per million registered vehicles in 2000 to 6 deaths per million in 2014. “

       

      Looks like rollovers overall are a small % of crash types, about 2%, but they are quite deadly. And with the ESC the cars that STILL rollover are probably more severe/harsh in their circumstances leading to likely more serious crashes. Definitely a safe behavior is to always wear seatbelts and drive safely with proper maintenance/tires and not to always trust technology to save you.

      In general given the rarity of the rollovers, even though SUVs are more likely to do so than cars, and given that in other crashes SUVs will fare better I do see a logical reason to go for SUVs rather than smaller/lighter cars. Whether it’s worth it financially is up to the buyer. I myself am very intrigued by this and I’ll likely look at SUVs as a potential vehicle type in my future car buying list.
      Click to expand…


      You’ll settle on an SUV, its just the overall best mix of features and safety. Picking even the one spot that its not as good at is way overshadowed by the relative infrequency of that event. Nothings perfect. There are lots of reasonably priced SUVs, you dont have to have the biggest or a Lexus, its more the mass that matters and Im sure Toyotas are very similar to their Lexus counterparts.
      Click to expand…


      Indeed. Perhaps smaller sized SUVs would be viable as well? CR-V or RAV4. Though of course a Toyota Sequoia/Land Cruiser is always a possibility. Defnitely would go for a Toyota Land Cruiser as it is essentially same as a Lexus LX. Though the sticker price on Land Cruiser is still quite a bit. Will definitely need to look in the used market for these
      Click to expand...


      CRV and Rav-4 are Civic and Corolla based, respectively, so you're going to have less mass, lower height, smaller crumple zones, etc.  However, the passengers do ride a little higher so in theory it would be a little safer.  Any modern Honda or Toyota product should offer a modern crash structure, but after that, mass is really king followed by depth of crumple zone and height.

      At some point though buying based on mass and size gets a little ridiculous, even though The Millionaire Next Door would beg to differ .  There was a Comedians in Cars getting Coffee episode with Jimmy Fallon and I want to say they were driving a classic Corvette, and Fallon asked Seinfeld if he worries about the lack of belts, airbags, etc.  Seinfeld said something to the effect of "how often do you use the airbags?" and that's pretty true.   :lol:

      Yes the LX and the Land Cruiser are the same thing.  Personally I really like the Land Cruiser but IMO it's a bit outdated compared to its competition, and priced very high to boot.  For new Land Cruiser money you could have a Range Rover, Merc GLS, Audi Q7, Volvo XC90, all of which are arguably much nicer vehicles.  That said, you probably wouldn't want to own any of those outside their warranty periods, whereas the Toyota and Lexus products are designed to have a product lifetime of 25 years.  On the more budget-friendly side, Nissan just launched its new Armada this year and Ford just unveiled its new 2018 Expedition literally today.  The Sequoia is less money but again, it has been virtually the same design with a few refreshes here and there for well over a decade now.

      Comment


      • #18
        Craig,

        Very good point and one that I had not considered. I do know that automakers share platforms across models (my Acura TL and the Accord share a platform for example) but that makes sense that the smaller SUVs share sedan platforms.

        The Land Cruiser and other large SUVs would definitely provide that large mass and height advantage. Cost would be an issue as well as reliability compared to other, nicer brands. And of course here comes the arena where spending will need to be decided by the buyer...whether it's worth it to get that bigger vehicle. The Millionaire Next Door defnitely won't approve as much...though a great book nevertheless!

        I actually just saw the new Ford's website on the '18 Expedition...looks gigantic! The front end styling is not really my cup of tea and honestly seems like a deformed Ford Edge front end....and I don't want to know the MPG...though I heard they only offer Ecoboost now and no V8 for the new Expedition (probably to save whatever meager MPG they can)

        Thanks for the insight and our factual back and forth. I do and will likely consider SUVs as well in my future car purchase. A friend's sister is a PharmD and drives in a Infiniti QX56 (same as an Armada, as you mentioned) and the higher ride height is quite nice and you can easily see over many things and can be very useful to the safe driver. The gauge cluster is totally messed up though (RPM gauge not working at all) and is about $700 to replace apparently....hence my gravitation towards Land Cruisers....likely will try for used example but they are a legendary marque (of Top Gear fame of the undying truck brand....) and hence used prices will even be inflated....

        Comment


        • #19


          .
          Click to expand...


          What part doesnt have a ton of evidence?

          The safety part certainly does. You're more than twice as likely to die in an accident if in a smaller vehicle vs. a larger one, there is data for all classes. Now they arent "safer" necessarily, but with their larger mass and crumple zones, etc...they transfer that risk to the smaller vehicle. When the car mix on the road shifts to only SUVs, there will be zero advantage, but of course still a large disadvantage if not.

          You do not need a fancy car to get safety, just bigger than the average one.

          Comment

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