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  • #46
    My math may be wrong but if your portfolio typically doubles in say every 10 years a 1M portfolio becomes 16M in 40 yrs. If that's right most of the docs here will be part of that 1% barring big mistakes.

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    • #47




      My math may be wrong but if your portfolio typically doubles in say every 10 years a 1M portfolio becomes 16M in 40 yrs. If that’s right most of the docs here will be part of that 1% barring big mistakes.
      Click to expand...


      yup.

      barring catastrophe, I see no prob hitting a low 8 digit portfolio and I'm a little surprised at suggestions to the contrary.  the question is how much the bar will have moved (i.e. need $50MM to qualify for 1%).

      regardless...I spend my working days with staff who are scraping to pay rent and patients who can't afford a $4 rx.  in other words, it's all relative.

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      • #48
        I know several > 10 mill net worth physicians.  Generally they have worked a full career and had ownership in the practice.  Also know of one two physician couple worth $18 mill.  In the future I think we will see lots of 2 doc (or other high income spouse) break 10 million.

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        • #49
          Hypothetically, let's say 50% of the employed population started saving 25% gross from day one of employment. Didn't change jobs,  lived frugally, ate healthy, were physically active, did not adhere to the consumerist life. Would 50% of the population become multimillionaires at the age of retirement? I'd posit the answer to that question would be no. They would mostly have good lives, but I think profit is earned when money is spent inefficiently trying to churn the dopamine treadmill. And if there's no profit grossly then you could have a stock and RE market that looks like Japan. Any one individual can become a multimillionaire(including everyone on this board), but not everyone. It is zero summish.

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          • #50




            My math may be wrong but if your portfolio typically doubles in say every 10 years a 1M portfolio becomes 16M in 40 yrs. If that’s right most of the docs here will be part of that 1% barring big mistakes.
            Click to expand...


            Math is more or less right, but the perspective is incomplete. By then the top 1% in wealth might require $60M or $80M. Can't compare to the 2017 numbers. Still, as some on this forum have proven, it is possible for a doc or an entrepreneur to get there. But if not, everyone here is still going to be fine financially. Well, just speaking for myself, I'm willing to limp along at $5M or so in today's dollars.

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            • #51













              “With those numbers I’ll never be in the 1% by net worth even though I might spend 20+ years as a 1%er by income.”

              It’s always amusing when doctors who think they’re ‘rich’ while earning a few hundred k a year become aware that there are peole out there who earn far more or, more interestingly, have accumulated far more. Hedge fund managers earning nine figures, beneficiaries of massive trust funds, selling a business… its a big world out there and some people are wildly successful.
              Click to expand…


              Totally. And $10 mm is not that much if you are looking at money and power; as noted, that’s the entry bar for the 1%. It’s an apartment in NYC plus a summer home in the Hamptons and a couple of million in savings. It’s a brownstone in Manhattan. It’s a house in Marin. It’s not that much in terms of real wealth in America. It’s not money that can buy influence or power.

              Many docs seem to be first-generation affluent and, unlike the hedge fund folk, many also seem to come from regions where people think of doctors as rich, not just upper middle class. It’s funny to me how many doctors think they are better off with policies that benefit the truly wealthy, when in fact docs in countries with more social welfare and reasonably high wages (Australia and Canada, even the UK in some instances) will come out ahead of the vast majority of American doctors when benefits like better public education, cheaper universities, and a more robust pension system are included in the calculation.

               

               
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              Interesting. My American city has several Canadian doctors who have emigrated to our medical system. I don’t know any Americans who have moved to join theirs. Maybe they should talk to you to get the real scoop.
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              I know 2 doctors who moved to Canada to work in their medical system.  One eventually moved back, but only because he got divorced and wife who had primary custody was moving back to U.S. with the kids and he wanted to stay close to them.   Aside from the weather change, they both liked/like working in the Canadian system much more, and made more there too.  The one who moved back said for some specialties including his many U.S. doctors have difficulty getting all their ducks in a row to work in Canada because you need an equivalent training period to what their docs have for the same specialty, and their training is longer for some specialties…so for example in this guys specialty U.S. residency is 4 years but Canada is 5…he had done a fellowship and the extra year counted towards the requirement but someone without the fellowship would have been denied.   The guy who moved back says he would go back to work in Canada in a heartbeat if it didn’t mean not living in the same region as his kids.

              I recognize both of our viewpoints are anecdotal, but I wouldn’t take who you personally know that seriously when analyzing which system is better for doctors.
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              Yup.

              Thirty years ago American docs made more, hands down. Now it depends on the field. Agreed with Anne, my point being that the US is not the be all and end all for the mass affluent that many think it is. In the 300-600k bracket in which most docs live, the bennies (particulary high-quality education and cheaper medical care) available in Canada combined with an oft-equivalent or sometimes higher salary can really make a doc come out ahead. Same with Australia. And fewer one percenters to buy up all the good stuff.

               

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              • #52


                My math may be wrong but if your portfolio typically doubles in say every 10 years a 1M portfolio becomes 16M in 40 yrs.
                Click to expand...


                I have not gotten to that first million yet.  I certainly plan to start using that money in less then 40 years.

                Also that assumes a average 7% rate.  Which may or may not be correct.

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                • #53







                  When I was a kid the mass affluent could have a summer house in the Hamptons or Nantucket. Not so much now with a long tail on the right end of the economic bell curve. My situation wouldn’t change much as a one percenter via NW; it would take being in the .1 or .01%.

                  Great article on how it’s become this way and why we care:https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/meritocracys-miserable-winners/594760/
                  Click to expand…


                  This article has nothing to do with the 0.01%; it’s talking about you and me, the well-educated, upper middle-class professional who works his/her ****************** off for long hours every day.

                  And it’s hooey. No one forces anyone to work like a dog, but those who are willing to do so are likely to earn more — because they produce more. That’s fair.

                   
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                  I think the point is that there is a much worse ROI for working hard than there used to be, and that in many ways this is a road to nowhere. The mass affluent are having a rougher time than we used to with such high RE costs and education costs.

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                  • #54
                    i understand the math but i feel confident saying i know more physicians > age 75 who are not worth $10 million than who are worth $10 million plus.

                    poor investment decisions, spending, divorce, illness, generosity, etc etc.

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                    • #55


                      Hypothetically, let’s say 50% of the employed population started saving 25% gross from day one of employment. Didn’t change jobs, lived frugally, ate healthy, were physically active, did not adhere to the consumerist life. Would 50% of the population become multimillionaires at the age of retirement?
                      Click to expand...


                      I too have thought what would happen if society as a whole become hyper savers like WCI die-hards.

                      Even a 20% savings rate would be too much for our country to bear. USA has become predominantly a service industry country, with less and less manufacturing and exports. Most of our economy is internal, with a good chunk of chines crap junk thrown in. What would happen if we started cutting out spontaneous purchases. No more tons of dresses or shoes. Use a standard Honda for 10+ years with low cost service. Live in the same house for 20 years with no mortgage after 15 years. No more eating out at fancy restaurants.

                      Our economy would collapse. The car maker and the chef and waitresses and realtor would be out of jobs. The big companies will not make as many products and will lay off workers. They may not be able to save any but the ones fearing that the axe will fall on them next will hoard more savings, which will worsen the downward spiral of the economy.

                      A non consumer society is bad for the economy. And I thank all the people who change 50-75K cars every 3 years and hence are able to save <20%. They help the hypersavers.

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                      • #56




                        I know several > 10 mill net worth physicians.  Generally they have worked a full career and had ownership in the practice.  Also know of one two physician couple worth $18 mill.  In the future I think we will see lots of 2 doc (or other high income spouse) break 10 million.
                        Click to expand...


                        I didn't find it that hard to get here in mid 40's, and we're just FP and non-physician. Imagine two specialists. It really just takes 1- making the extra effort and 2-be willing to take risks including, for most, business and real estate risk. Many don't want to do this (based on comments posted) which is fine as well.

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                        • #57







                          I know several > 10 mill net worth physicians.  Generally they have worked a full career and had ownership in the practice.  Also know of one two physician couple worth $18 mill.  In the future I think we will see lots of 2 doc (or other high income spouse) break 10 million.
                          Click to expand…


                          I didn’t find it that hard to get here in mid 40’s, and we’re just FP and non-physician. Imagine two specialists. It really just takes 1- making the extra effort and 2-be willing to take risks including, for most, business and real estate risk. Many don’t want to do this (based on comments posted) which is fine as well.
                          Click to expand...


                          Personally fatlittlepig doesn’t find net worths consisting of bloated “business” valuations and real estate valuations compelling... plus it seems hard to calculate a net worth when the “business” has cash flow, debt issues blah blah. For me personally it’s all about amount of investable assets.

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                          • #58
                            Well, the business is an investment. Only public equities count? Why?

                            But the notion that physicians cannot accumulate that level of assets assumes that physicians will decide not to. They will decide to take fancy vacations. Drive and frequently replace expensive new cars. Live in expensive houses. Go to fancy restaurants. Buy lots of expensive stuf- clothes, jewelry, art, collectibles, whatever.

                            The references to not getting there with 20% savings rate might be true but how does one justify spending 80% of a threshold 1% income? Plenty of middle class people live rich rewarding lives with spending nowhere close to that. Instead of living like a resident for a few years, while congratulating oneself for the agonizing restraint, live like a schoolteacher for a career. Once you pay down educational debt, don't let it rip for spending. Put the same amount that went into paying loans into savings. Do a savings rate of 40% instead of 20. With lower perceived "needs" and moderated wants, life can be pleasant without literally blowing a fortune on ill considered spending.

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                            • #59
                              The country will never become hypersavers. Just today with one breath a patient was telling me about his new boat. And the next complaining about how he cannot afford his Xarelto. The disconnect was very comical and I barely kept a straight face.

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                              • #60




                                Well, the business is an investment. Only public equities count? Why?
                                Click to expand...


                                Completely agree with you, business definitely counts.  It can be challenging to value it, however.  On another thread there is someone who says his/her CD investment has beaten the market in the last 18 months.  This is mathematically untrue.  If this same person says that his/her business is worth $5MM...well, how much overvaluation is in there?

                                If I may be so bold, I suspect this is to what FLP is referring.

                                Again, I see no prob with docs hitting the 1% with NW...and I think that folks nerdy enough to spend time on this forum will be in that category.

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