Vacation homes. Dismal math & a dead horse

[Tangler]

My honest opinion is that you can afford it but do you want it. I have owned more than one home before and found it to be exhausting. If you own it there will always be some chores to do.

This is what my wife says. She thinks we don't do a perfect job of "upkeep" (keep clean, updated, repaired, and organized) on our primary home and adding a vacation home will make this worse. She is probably correct. I just see the upside.

[Tim]

This is what my wife says. She thinks we don't do a perfect job of "upkeep" (keep clean, updated, repaired, and organized) on our primary home and adding a vacation home will make this worse. She is probably correct. I just see the upside.

Family decisions, that is between you folks. I may be wrong, I thought the MIL lives with you. Another can of worms.

If you complain about RE commissions, get off the MLS systems. Every home you found is MLS. Look at FSBO listings. You don’t have to use a title company or an attorney. You can fill out a deed and file it with the county.
Depends how far you want to take DIY.

You have so many moving pieces playing into this purchase. There is no “20% down”, save “20%” or SWR.

One misconception about “downsizing” in retirement, that doesn’t mean freeing up cash. You may have more or less square footage, but the cost tends to be the same or increase.

Your wife might really be wanting what, to her, would be a potential home, rather than a room or 2 at the Cape. Now you are talking a whole different price range at the Cape. Family decision.
Fishing camp, family vacation home, or potential residence?

This is a very good exercise, make a plan both you and the wife agree upon. THAT would be progress.

[Jenn]

TLDR! This is our vacation home: our camper on the water, fully portable in theory but mostly only by water- over land would be a big nightmare and hasn't been done with this yet- he sailed it across the Gulf to get it where it is now. I let spouse buy a new sailboat, which doesn't have full house type plumbing so a little closer to camping than I actually want for vacationing but... when we go we love sailing, it cost <$200K initially (and might resell for $50-100K when we tire of it), and costs us < $600/month insurance diver slip rental. Still kills me that overall (as I calculate now and then) he is paying WE ARE paying about $2000/ day of good sailing. Keep telling him go there twice as often, halve the cost of each adventure. He assures me- and I believe him- that there is really no way to rent a boat and enjoy it as he does this one, and he clearly values being able to mention his sailboat on the Gulf (STG he doesn't have small man syndrome) just as he now enjoys owning a Corvette (at least he drives that weekly or more). We considered getting a condo or home near the boat but I wanted to hear the surf when I sleep, so beach which is an hour from the boat in the bay, and owning a few hundred cubic feet of space (and floors ceiling and walls surrounding it) on the 4th floor of an older building in a hurricane zone with likely annual assessments we can't predict seemed crazy. I prefer getting a hotel or weekly condo instead, and the option of doing it somewhere else! I think he should sell the boat and give a chunk of money to his buddy with a sailboat in California for the right to come visit more often than his annual or so trip out there. Or get a sail buddy and go without me at least once a month.

Before this one we owned a few older boats which cost a little less monthly (smaller so lower slip fee, lower insurance, diver not so essential) and had <1/10th the purchase price. But financial advisor (my brother) made me admit we could afford it. Sadly the only parity I have is buying a house with acreage last few places, and now moving us to be near new grandkid which is for both of us, right? I mean I should be keeping a dozen horses or something to be spending on a level with him.

Now he is bugging me to replace my 8' long bed pickup truck "gonna keep it until one of us [me or the truck] dies" with the EV version. Finally told him "I will if you sell the sailboat" and he has shut up for a few days so far.

[Tangler]

TLDR! This is our vacation home: our camper on the water, fully portable in theory but mostly only by water- over land would be a big nightmare and hasn't been done with this yet- he sailed it across the Gulf to get it where it is now. I let spouse buy a new sailboat, which doesn't have full house type plumbing so a little closer to camping than I actually want for vacationing but... when we go we love sailing, it cost <$200K initially (and might resell for $50-100K when we tire of it), and costs us < $600/month insurance diver slip rental. Still kills me that overall (as I calculate now and then) he is paying WE ARE paying about $2000/ day of good sailing. Keep telling him go there twice as often, halve the cost of each adventure. He assures me- and I believe him- that there is really no way to rent a boat and enjoy it as he does this one, and he clearly values being able to mention his sailboat on the Gulf (STG he doesn't have small man syndrome) just as he now enjoys owning a Corvette (at least he drives that weekly or more). We considered getting a condo or home near the boat but I wanted to hear the surf when I sleep, so beach which is an hour from the boat in the bay, and owning a few hundred cubic feet of space (and floors ceiling and walls surrounding it) on the 4th floor of an older building in a hurricane zone with likely annual assessments we can't predict seemed crazy. I prefer getting a hotel or weekly condo instead, and the option of doing it somewhere else! I think he should sell the boat and give a chunk of money to his buddy with a sailboat in California for the right to come visit more often than his annual or so trip out there. Or get a sail buddy and go without me at least once a month.

Before this one we owned a few older boats which cost a little less monthly (smaller so lower slip fee, lower insurance, diver not so essential) and had <1/10th the purchase price. But financial advisor (my brother) made me admit we could afford it. Sadly the only parity I have is buying a house with acreage last few places, and now moving us to be near new grandkid which is for both of us, right? I mean I should be keeping a dozen horses or something to be spending on a level with him.

Now he is bugging me to replace my 8' long bed pickup truck "gonna keep it until one of us [me or the truck] dies" with the EV version. Finally told him "I will if you sell the sailboat" and he has shut up for a few days so far.

Enjoy it. Compromise. Save, spend, give, and enjoy life. No one lives forever. There is a balance. I agree with you on the EV pickup. I will wait 10 years and see what cars look like and then perhaps buy something with out a gas engine, until then I will pay for gas and be glad it starts and has a gas station for refueling every few miles on long road trips.

[Tim]

“ I mean I should be keeping a dozen horses or something to be spending on a level with him”

Jenn

Why a dozen? I would love to ride “my” horse one hour a day, but riding each horse 1 hour would be too much.
Twelve grand kids? I suppose you could afford the saddles and bridles, kids ride together. Of course brushing and TLC besides food, shelter and healthcare.
But then again you could hire a stable hand. But that takes the joy out of having YOUR horse.
Sometimes more is not better. Two will be fine. You and the spouse can take rides together.

[G]

Enjoy it. Compromise. Save, spend, give, and enjoy life. No one lives forever. There is a balance. I agree with you on the EV pickup. I will wait 10 years and see what cars look like and then perhaps buy something with out a gas engine, until then I will pay for gas and be glad it starts and has a gas station for refueling every few miles on long road trips.

Ha! I've done a lot of overlanding with my ICE while people have been selling the dream/hope of EV. When I can power my truck in the middle of the outback on a snowy day--and the aftermarket is available to supply these new trucks with campers, gear, armor, whatever--I'll give EV a look.

[VagabondMD]

When you reach FI, spending becomes less about the math and more about the enjoyment. Of course, there are limits to profligate spending, but I don’t understand all of the angst about the math in this thread. I might if you were wanting to spend that much on NetJets but not on a piece of real estate that is still standing when you want to visit. But, then again, I don’t look at real estate as a consumption item and don’t understand that argument.

This is a good point. When I am weighing the costs and pros and cons of the second home, with the devil (spendthrift) on one shoulder and the angel (thrifty) on the other, the devil's argument is always that it is not like you are consuming all of the money that gets spent on the vacation home. If you buy it for $xxxxxxx, and you change your mind or have a change in fortune or for any or no reason at all, you can just sell and it easily recoup 80% of $xxxxxxx and probably be none the worse for the wear. In fact, if you do it while you are young enough to fully enjoy it, you might just get it out of your system if that is what needs to happen. In some markets, your dalliance might even earn you a profit (but this is something that should not be counted on).

[Tangler]

This is a good point. When I am weighing the costs and pros and cons of the second home, with the devil (spendthrift) on one shoulder and the angel (thrifty) on the other, the devil's argument is always that it is not like you are consuming all of the money that gets spent on the vacation home. If you buy it for $xxxxxxx, and you change your mind or have a change in fortune or for any or no reason at all, you can just sell and it easily recoup 80% of $xxxxxxx and probably be none the worse for the wear. In fact, if you do it while you are young enough to fully enjoy it, you might just get it out of your system if that is what needs to happen. In some markets, your dalliance might even earn you a profit (but this is something that should not be counted on).

Yes. For me it is mostly about what my wife and I agree on.

[GIMD]

Not sure if this plan will work for you but this is what we did. My wife has been planting a bug in my ears for several years now about a beach house. I'm not as enthusiastic but went down to Fl anyway to check things out. I picked a place where I can see us eventualy retiring to and ended up buying a house a few miles inland (my wife compromised) as I didn't want it to be overrunned by hurricanes (best decision of my life). Since we were not close to retiring or even have time to enjoy the house with babies in the picture, I turned it into a long-term rental. The rental income more than pay for the mortgage and related costs of the house. The plan is when my kids are old enough to enjoy Disney, we will use the house as a true vacation home for the kids to enjoy the beach and Disney. Psychologically, since it is our potential vacation home, we do not feel bad if it does not bring in the highest rent and we select our tenants very carefully. Financially, it has been a very good investment. Perhaps, you can calculate how much rent you can bring in with your eventual second home, rent it out for several years until you officially retire, then move into the second home with your wife full-time. This may be easier for your wife to accept.

[Tangler]

Not sure if this plan will work for you but this is what we did. My wife has been planting a bug in my ears for several years now about a beach house. I'm not as enthusiastic but went down to Fl anyway to check things out. I picked a place where I can see us eventualy retiring to and ended up buying a house a few miles inland (my wife compromised) as I didn't want it to be overrunned by hurricanes (best decision of my life). Since we were not close to retiring or even have time to enjoy the house with babies in the picture, I turned it into a long-term rental. The rental income more than pay for the mortgage and related costs of the house. The plan is when my kids are old enough to enjoy Disney, we will use the house as a true vacation home for the kids to enjoy the beach and Disney. Psychologically, since it is our potential vacation home, we do not feel bad if it does not bring in the highest rent and we select our tenants very carefully. Financially, it has been a very good investment. Perhaps, you can calculate how much rent you can bring in with your eventual second home, rent it out for several years until you officially retire, then move into the second home with your wife full-time. This may be easier for your wife to accept.

Awesome. Very glad for you wife. I grew up on the gulf coast and agree with her! Floriday is fantastic.

Not happening for me, and that is ok.

Anyway, I have family on the gulf coast of Alabama and for years I have considered buying a home in my original home town near the water.

My twin brother recently sold a home on Dauphin Island and I have a sister and brother with waterfront homes ( houses on Fowl river, opens into Mobile Bay....amazing fishing......wonderful swimming etc.)

My story is a little more complicated regarding second homes. I had a home in Birmingham, Al as a young attending (I was on staff at UAB) and I bought it at the worst possible time (2006) and paid too much. I then decided to go to Boston to do more training (second fellowship).

Since the market was dropping, I rented that place out for 10 years and it was a money pit. I lost money on it and being a long distance landlord was suboptimal at best......my wife absolutely remembers this situation.

It was bad timing + wrong house + bad management + I was too busy and too far away + unlucky + etc.

So.......you and I have the opposite situation: Your wife wants a second home. My wife does not want a second home.

Regardless of finances. Regardless of math. Regardless of housing markets, interest rates, states of the economy, stage of life, passion for fishing.....etc. etc.

The one big lesson for me, for all married men. The one thing that will make your life better?

Answer: Do what your wife wants.

If you can possibly find a way to do this and be OK with it, life will be better. Find a way to do it and be at peace with it. move on and enjoy the wonderful little things in life that make it delightful.

Will my situation change? Will I one day push hard for a home that allows me easier access to the water? Yes, but like so many things we put of as docs (delayed gratification is an art) I will postpone this for a 6m, 1yr, 3yrs etc.

I have tried very hard to "listen", something I need to get better at, admittedly and she has some reasonable concerns regarding a second home.

She would rather have one really nice primary home and rent vacation homes. She has a lot of very good reasons for this. I get it.

There is also a lot going on right now in our little household. Her mom lives with us and she has terminal CA (and is getting worse and is getting chemo down the street at a world class CA hospital). Her momma (I call her Okassan = mother in Japanese) is a delightful little lady who has been a wonderful addition to our home. She moved in in 2013 and has been getting chemo since that time. I get along with her really well. She probably won't live another 5 years. No way of knowing but she is happy now, likes where we live and is really a happy 83 year old person who enjoys every day.

This complicates things. Also, I am working part time and "might" fully retire in the next 1-5 years. This also complicates things.

I plan on taking things year by year, month by month, day by day. Not like I am defusing IEDs in Iraq......pretty easy life.

Financially we are saving well and doing ok. Relationship wise, everyone is happy and loves the people they live with.

A tangent about her mom: Her mom said one day: "I want a dog".......I said. NO, not now. Too much going on. You are sick, we live in a small condo in Boston (true at the time) we have an old sick cat with diabetes on insulin and your daughter and I are working full time. No dog. Not a good situation for a dog or for us.

She repeated: "I want a dog". I said no. No dog. Nope. I am the man of the house and I am putting my foot down here. Absolutely no dog. No.

.........we compromised.........

We got TWO dogs.........crazy......the old cat.....loved the dogs. Vet (and I) were astonished. Dogs have been life changing for me. I love them as if they were kids and they keep my mother-in-law company (she talks to them in Japanese etc.)

Anyway, life is an adventure roll with it and enjoy it.

[Tangler]

Here are some dog pics. Teacup schnauzer dogs. one is 5 pounds the other 7 pounds. Ridiculous. 100% unconditional love.

[Tangler]

A few more.

[Jenn]

My BFF (best friend forever for those who haven't raised tweens lately) divorced her husband. Part of the reason was his expectation that he could buy a big place in the woods near their grandkids (but not near enough), keep their old place, and keep their beach house. Her life with just two homes was filled with being the cleaner (with help at times), concierge, interior decorator, cook, grocery and supply buyer, launderer for the two homes. She realised his vacation homes would be a vaca for him and more work and travel and aggravation for her.

Wouldn't be surprised if your wives (even those with outside jobs since such wives, as I know, on average and on median, still do more housework and childcare than their spouses) anticipate twice as much homemaker work as they now do rather than a lovely place near the beach etc. But as above if she wants it, she must be willing to take that on (or knows how to delegate way better than me).

PS Thanks for the dog pics. Just lost our last Good Girl Xmas Eve, and lost 2 cats and the other dog last year. Trying after vowing I'll never get another dog (due to accumulate pain of the last loss) to not tell husband that we need a dog to keep me happy. But there are some good arguments- easy for me to delegate dog care and a delight to do it on my own when able.

[VagabondMD]

My BFF (best friend forever for those who haven't raised tweens lately) divorced her husband. Part of the reason was his expectation that he could buy a big place in the woods near their grandkids (but not near enough), keep their old place, and keep their beach house. Her life with just two homes was filled with being the cleaner (with help at times), concierge, interior decorator, cook, grocery and supply buyer, launderer for the two homes. She realised his vacation homes would be a vaca for him and more work and travel and aggravation for her.

Wouldn't be surprised if your wives (even those with outside jobs since such wives, as I know, on average and on median, still do more housework and childcare than their spouses) anticipate twice as much homemaker work as they now do rather than a lovely place near the beach etc. But as above if she wants it, she must be willing to take that on (or knows how to delegate way better than me).

PS Thanks for the dog pics. Just lost our last Good Girl Xmas Eve, and lost 2 cats and the other dog last year. Trying after vowing I'll never get another dog (due to accumulate pain of the last loss) to not tell husband that we need a dog to keep me happy. But there are some good arguments- easy for me to delegate dog care and a delight to do it on my own when able.

Interesting point that you bring up regarding the "wife role" in all of this. In my own circumstance, we are both professionals, have reasonably complementary skills sets and chore preferences, and the kids are mostly OTD. Additionally, if/when we acquire the second home, the expectation is that she will be retired from the main gig, and I will be WFHing. It would not occur to me that this would become the vacation for one and the labor for the other.

More importantly, I am sorry for the loss of your pet family members. We love our dogs and will be sad and miss them terribly when they are gone. And then we will find new dogs to love, and the cycle will continue. Do not wait too long. There are many deserving dogs out there that need a home like yours.

Related to both of the above, my wife does say that the reason we "need" a second home, rather than renting an AirBNB for a month or for the summer is that I cannot stand to be away from the dogs for that long a time, and she is not entirely incorrect.

[wideopenspaces]

My BFF (best friend forever for those who haven't raised tweens lately) divorced her husband. Part of the reason was his expectation that he could buy a big place in the woods near their grandkids (but not near enough), keep their old place, and keep their beach house. Her life with just two homes was filled with being the cleaner (with help at times), concierge, interior decorator, cook, grocery and supply buyer, launderer for the two homes. She realised his vacation homes would be a vaca for him and more work and travel and aggravation for her.

Wouldn't be surprised if your wives (even those with outside jobs since such wives, as I know, on average and on median, still do more housework and childcare than their spouses) anticipate twice as much homemaker work as they now do rather than a lovely place near the beach etc. But as above if she wants it, she must be willing to take that on (or knows how to delegate way better than me).

PS Thanks for the dog pics. Just lost our last Good Girl Xmas Eve, and lost 2 cats and the other dog last year. Trying after vowing I'll never get another dog (due to accumulate pain of the last loss) to not tell husband that we need a dog to keep me happy. But there are some good arguments- easy for me to delegate dog care and a delight to do it on my own when able.

I'm the wife ( we both work) and I can't say I find our second home to be a lot of work. We ALL do a quick cleaning before we leave each time- my older son cleans the bathrooms, my 6 yo vaacums and we make sure counters are wiped down, dishes put away, trash goes out and everything is in its place. Takes us under an hour. At our primary home we hire out weekly cleaning, lawn care, etc. But we did that long before we bought the second property. My husband makes a conscious effort to split up household chores though so relationship dynamics probably need to be taken into account.