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  • #91







    Can I ask, what is the main purpose of this?

     

    As a primary care physician, it takes a significant amount of mental will power, as it is, to look past the many posts or articles that talk about the extra 6 figure amounts specialists are able to put away, while I focus on what is pertinent to my financial picture, and doing the best job that I can do with what I have.  I really DO NOT want to compare, as it can (and let’s be honest…  it WAS when I first started reading this website/forum) depressing to realize the pay differential between specialties.

    Maybe some people like this.
    I don’t want to compare to others, I just want to do my best with what I have.

     

    That being said I am very proud of what we have been able to do through a ton of hard work, sacrifice, and diligence.  If I posted my net worth, others might use it to feel like rockstars because their new worth is more. (and by all means- anyone who is hardworking and saving and reading this website – if they have more- yay!) – or maybe they would be wowed because I AM primary care- but I do not want to compare to anyone except my own potential.

     
    Click to expand…


    This seems a little off to me. I would much prefer to know exactly what everyone in my profession in general and my company specifically makes.  Information asymmetry only helps the employer.  You should know whether you are over or under compensated relative to your peers and whether such differences come from performance or negotiation.

    The fact that you only learned about the pay differential of different specialties after reading an internet forum speaks to the need for better financial awareness for docs.  I think most non-docs even know that.

    Regarding net worth, I also think it’s good to know the ramifications of your decisions.  Seeing what others save with higher incomes, better savings rates, and wise investments should only help you make better decisions in the future.
    Click to expand...


    I understand what SPlum is saying.   There's not a PCP around who isn't aware of the pay differential between generalists and specialists.  The pay difference there often doesn't come from negotiation or performance, it largely comes from how medical work is valued--i.e. procedural work is reimbursed much better than cognitive work.  You can place a stent for $$$$ or you can sit down and try to motivate a patient to stop smoking, eat better, exercise for $.   I think most doctors know the pay differential even when they are in med school.   It just doesn't seem to be as big of a deal then (it all seems like a lot of money when you are used to making nothing), plus med students are often optimistic idealists to the extreme--you have to be to make it through.  PCPs and lower paid specialists can get frustrated if they try to compare themselves to higher paid specialists.  And in terms of making better decisions in the future--they can make some tweaks to increase their income, but it's very unlikely that they will increase their income to the higher 6 figures, unless they have extraordinary business sense.  It's very difficult to go back and do a second residency.  So they have to live with the ramifications of choosing the area of medicine that they did.  And sometimes doing so is better if they avoid the mindset of comparing themselves financially with specialists who make a lot more.

    This is something I think it's difficult for non-doctors to understand.  Few professions are as rigid in the career trajectory after the initial training period as is medicine.

    Comment


    • #92
      Very few free lunches even for the highly paid specialists.

      Obviously nothing more annoying than these types of debates of physician comp, but it’s fair to say that very few sweet gigs in medicine where people pull in high 6 or 7 figures without really earning it.

      Cardiologists arent making more because they “put in a stent”. It’s more than a cognitive vs procedural argument.

      In general, They make more because they do an additional 4 years of an intense fellowship, work more nights, weekends, deal with high acuity and sick pts, deal with complications and deal with clinic with many of the same problems of whiny entilted long term clinic pts. Same with neurosurgery and others. Trust me I would rather talk about smoking cessation too rather than standing with led getting radiated while I sweat bullets that I can’t open an occluded artery in a decompensating patient at 2 am while my pager is going nuts with nurses wanting admit orders and Tylenol.

      With that said I do recognize the “ceiling” is often significantly higher in these specialties for the motivated and hard working but many docs can out hustle their specialty income brackets.

      Rest assured a WCI pcp will end up better than 80-90% of cardiologists out there by the time they hit 60. Follow The Godfather and regardless of pay discrepancy you’ll be fine and probably better off at age 60 than 95% of the docs out there.

      Comment


      • #93
        I find it fascinating that a neurosurgeon gets paid 30k by private insurance for pulling out a herniated disc and putting a spacer and a plate in an hour while his classmate gets $200 for the same time spent advising a patient to lose weight and to stop smoking.

        Comment


        • #94
          Your survey reminded me of the bogleheads networth spreadsheet. It was fun/interesting for me, but it led to the same heated arguments your starting to get here. Basically the networth spreadsheet with all the information you’re trying to obtain got locked and the big boss himself said this about it:

          White Coat Investor
          Re: 2015 net worth survey
          Post Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:53 pm

          In before the lock! We don’t talk about net worth or income on this forum anymore. It’s not actionable. This is for personal finance and investing topics only. ????

          PS i did not add taxes to expenses otherwise spending would be massive. Would be better to know what their savings rate was. But I have a feeling this thread might die a slow death…..

          Comment


          • #95




            Your survey reminded me of the bogleheads networth spreadsheet. It was fun/interesting for me, but it led to the same heated arguments your starting to get here. Basically the networth spreadsheet with all the information you’re trying to obtain got locked and the big boss himself said this about it:

            White Coat Investor
            Re: 2015 net worth survey
            Post Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:53 pm

            In before the lock! We don’t talk about net worth or income on this forum anymore. It’s not actionable. This is for personal finance and investing topics only. ????

            PS i did not add taxes to expenses otherwise spending would be massive. Would be better to know what their savings rate was. But I have a feeling this thread might die a slow death…..
            Click to expand...


            I'm not sure I was against surveys, more just mentioning that forum's policy. I kind of liked seeing the year end return and savings rate ones. A net worth or income survey done once is probably interesting, just to get a sense for what types of wealth are seen on the forum. But it does have an unfortunate side effect...
            Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

            Comment


            • #96




              Very few free lunches even for the highly paid specialists.

              Obviously nothing more annoying than these types of debates of physician comp, but it’s fair to say that very few sweet gigs in medicine where people pull in high 6 or 7 figures without really earning it.

              Cardiologists arent making more because they “put in a stent”. It’s more than a cognitive vs procedural argument.

              In general, They make more because they do an additional 4 years of an intense fellowship, work more nights, weekends, deal with high acuity and sick pts, deal with complications and deal with clinic with many of the same problems of whiny entilted long term clinic pts. Same with neurosurgery and others. Trust me I would rather talk about smoking cessation too rather than standing with led getting radiated while I sweat bullets that I can’t open an occluded artery in a decompensating patient at 2 am while my pager is going nuts with nurses wanting admit orders and Tylenol.

              With that said I do recognize the “ceiling” is often significantly higher in these specialties for the motivated and hard working but many docs can out hustle their specialty income brackets.

              Rest assured a WCI pcp will end up better than 80-90% of cardiologists out there by the time they hit 60. Follow The Godfather and regardless of pay discrepancy you’ll be fine and probably better off at age 60 than 95% of the docs out there.
              Click to expand...


              Not sure i agree with the wci pcp being better off 80% of time unless you think the divorce rates are significantly divergent.  There is definitely a case to be made for hospitalist doing better though.   Have no data though, just a gut feeling.  For sure, there are some pcp’s out there just killing it.

               

               

              Comment


              • #97
                Yea I obviously have no data but anecdotally speaking I don’t know too many cardiologists (and I know a fair amount) in their 50-60s who are super set financially or apart of the FIRE crowd. I still think the slow and steady that adhere to WCI end up doing better a majority of the time compared to the high income and usually high spending type that are financially clueless.

                Comment


                • #98










                  Can I ask, what is the main purpose of this?

                   

                  As a primary care physician, it takes a significant amount of mental will power, as it is, to look past the many posts or articles that talk about the extra 6 figure amounts specialists are able to put away, while I focus on what is pertinent to my financial picture, and doing the best job that I can do with what I have.  I really DO NOT want to compare, as it can (and let’s be honest…  it WAS when I first started reading this website/forum) depressing to realize the pay differential between specialties.

                  Maybe some people like this.
                  I don’t want to compare to others, I just want to do my best with what I have.

                   

                  That being said I am very proud of what we have been able to do through a ton of hard work, sacrifice, and diligence.  If I posted my net worth, others might use it to feel like rockstars because their new worth is more. (and by all means- anyone who is hardworking and saving and reading this website – if they have more- yay!) – or maybe they would be wowed because I AM primary care- but I do not want to compare to anyone except my own potential.

                   
                  Click to expand…


                  This seems a little off to me. I would much prefer to know exactly what everyone in my profession in general and my company specifically makes.  Information asymmetry only helps the employer.  You should know whether you are over or under compensated relative to your peers and whether such differences come from performance or negotiation.

                  The fact that you only learned about the pay differential of different specialties after reading an internet forum speaks to the need for better financial awareness for docs.  I think most non-docs even know that.

                  Regarding net worth, I also think it’s good to know the ramifications of your decisions.  Seeing what others save with higher incomes, better savings rates, and wise investments should only help you make better decisions in the future.
                  Click to expand…


                  I understand what SPlum is saying.   There’s not a PCP around who isn’t aware of the pay differential between generalists and specialists.  The pay difference there often doesn’t come from negotiation or performance, it largely comes from how medical work is valued–i.e. procedural work is reimbursed much better than cognitive work.  You can place a stent for $$$$ or you can sit down and try to motivate a patient to stop smoking, eat better, exercise for $.   I think most doctors know the pay differential even when they are in med school.   It just doesn’t seem to be as big of a deal then (it all seems like a lot of money when you are used to making nothing), plus med students are often optimistic idealists to the extreme–you have to be to make it through.  PCPs and lower paid specialists can get frustrated if they try to compare themselves to higher paid specialists.  And in terms of making better decisions in the future–they can make some tweaks to increase their income, but it’s very unlikely that they will increase their income to the higher 6 figures, unless they have extraordinary business sense.  It’s very difficult to go back and do a second residency.  So they have to live with the ramifications of choosing the area of medicine that they did.  And sometimes doing so is better if they avoid the mindset of comparing themselves financially with specialists who make a lot more.

                  This is something I think it’s difficult for non-doctors to understand.  Few professions are as rigid in the career trajectory after the initial training period as is medicine.
                  Click to expand...


                  I get what SPlum is saying on the one hand as well, but it is a variation of ignorance is bliss.  I don’t ascribe to that philosophy.   I get that trajectories are set once you finish residency, fellowship, etc.  Maybe you can’t do anything radical about your own situation (although I suspect you can change specialties if you really wanted to make it happen), but part of being an adult is understanding the consequences of decisions without resorting to burrying head in sand.  At a minimum more info can help the person inform others.  Issues like this propagate because people don’t like to talk about them.  Feeling bad for myself because some people make more money than me is a strange concept to me, and trust me, in finance the discrepancies are larger and the reasons can be way more mysterious.

                  Comment


                  • #99




                    Yea I obviously have no data but anecdotally speaking I don’t know too many cardiologists (and I know a fair amount) in their 50-60s who are super set financially or apart of the FIRE crowd. I still think the slow and steady that adhere to WCI end up doing better a majority of the time compared to the high income and usually high spending type that are financially clueless.
                    Click to expand...


                    i think hatton1 recently described an ENT surgeon who was financially able to retire but had no idea.  i bet a lot of the cardiologists in their 50-60s have net worth 2-3 million and so technically are FI and could retire, but obviously if they had been frugal and saved could have 10 millions.  different value systems, but at least by my definition, they are still set financially.  some of them just haven't given any thought to retirement.

                    most of the efficient primary care docs i know in their 50-60s are at 3 million.  the spendier ones  (and typically this just means more kids, more cars, more college expenses), are in the 1-2 million range and will start growing after the house empties.

                    ymmv.

                     

                    Comment















                    • Can I ask, what is the main purpose of this?

                       

                      As a primary care physician, it takes a significant amount of mental will power, as it is, to look past the many posts or articles that talk about the extra 6 figure amounts specialists are able to put away, while I focus on what is pertinent to my financial picture, and doing the best job that I can do with what I have.  I really DO NOT want to compare, as it can (and let’s be honest…  it WAS when I first started reading this website/forum) depressing to realize the pay differential between specialties.

                      Maybe some people like this.
                      I don’t want to compare to others, I just want to do my best with what I have.

                       

                      That being said I am very proud of what we have been able to do through a ton of hard work, sacrifice, and diligence.  If I posted my net worth, others might use it to feel like rockstars because their new worth is more. (and by all means- anyone who is hardworking and saving and reading this website – if they have more- yay!) – or maybe they would be wowed because I AM primary care- but I do not want to compare to anyone except my own potential.

                       
                      Click to expand…


                      This seems a little off to me. I would much prefer to know exactly what everyone in my profession in general and my company specifically makes.  Information asymmetry only helps the employer.  You should know whether you are over or under compensated relative to your peers and whether such differences come from performance or negotiation.

                      The fact that you only learned about the pay differential of different specialties after reading an internet forum speaks to the need for better financial awareness for docs.  I think most non-docs even know that.

                      Regarding net worth, I also think it’s good to know the ramifications of your decisions.  Seeing what others save with higher incomes, better savings rates, and wise investments should only help you make better decisions in the future.
                      Click to expand…


                      I understand what SPlum is saying.   There’s not a PCP around who isn’t aware of the pay differential between generalists and specialists.  The pay difference there often doesn’t come from negotiation or performance, it largely comes from how medical work is valued–i.e. procedural work is reimbursed much better than cognitive work.  You can place a stent for $$$$ or you can sit down and try to motivate a patient to stop smoking, eat better, exercise for $.   I think most doctors know the pay differential even when they are in med school.   It just doesn’t seem to be as big of a deal then (it all seems like a lot of money when you are used to making nothing), plus med students are often optimistic idealists to the extreme–you have to be to make it through.  PCPs and lower paid specialists can get frustrated if they try to compare themselves to higher paid specialists.  And in terms of making better decisions in the future–they can make some tweaks to increase their income, but it’s very unlikely that they will increase their income to the higher 6 figures, unless they have extraordinary business sense.  It’s very difficult to go back and do a second residency.  So they have to live with the ramifications of choosing the area of medicine that they did.  And sometimes doing so is better if they avoid the mindset of comparing themselves financially with specialists who make a lot more.

                      This is something I think it’s difficult for non-doctors to understand.  Few professions are as rigid in the career trajectory after the initial training period as is medicine.
                      Click to expand…


                      I get what SPlum is saying on the one hand as well, but it is a variation of ignorance is bliss.  I don’t ascribe to that philosophy.   I get that trajectories are set once you finish residency, fellowship, etc.  Maybe you can’t do anything radical about your own situation (although I suspect you can change specialties if you really wanted to make it happen), but part of being an adult is understanding the consequences of decisions without resorting to burrying head in sand.  At a minimum more info can help the person inform others.  Issues like this propagate because people don’t like to talk about them.  Feeling bad for myself because some people make more money than me is a strange concept to me, and trust me, in finance the discrepancies are larger and the reasons can be way more mysterious.
                      Click to expand...


                      i almost always learn something from every post you make.

                      i disagree with you in that i think ultimately it is disruptive to the work environment if everyone knows everyone else's salary.  in that setting the measurable must change frequently otherwise people game the system.  ultimately i expect that would lead to all salaries being the same.  i think that reduces productivity, because in my view, 20% of people frequently are doing 80% of the work.  no way to get the 80% to match the lost productivity of the 20%.  of course I'm usually an idiot, and i look forward to your response teaching me another viewpoint. 

                       

                      Comment




                      • i think hatton1 recently described an ENT surgeon who was financially able to retire but had no idea.
                        Click to expand...


                        Yes I did.  He has a net worth of 10 million and is sick of working at 62.  I did a back of the envelope 25x his expenses and he could of retired with 5 million.  This of course presumes the spending number is accurate.  I think there are busy docs out there who do not know they could retire if they sat down and ran some numbers.

                        Comment


















                        • Can I ask, what is the main purpose of this?

                           

                          As a primary care physician, it takes a significant amount of mental will power, as it is, to look past the many posts or articles that talk about the extra 6 figure amounts specialists are able to put away, while I focus on what is pertinent to my financial picture, and doing the best job that I can do with what I have.  I really DO NOT want to compare, as it can (and let’s be honest…  it WAS when I first started reading this website/forum) depressing to realize the pay differential between specialties.

                          Maybe some people like this.
                          I don’t want to compare to others, I just want to do my best with what I have.

                           

                          That being said I am very proud of what we have been able to do through a ton of hard work, sacrifice, and diligence.  If I posted my net worth, others might use it to feel like rockstars because their new worth is more. (and by all means- anyone who is hardworking and saving and reading this website – if they have more- yay!) – or maybe they would be wowed because I AM primary care- but I do not want to compare to anyone except my own potential.

                           
                          Click to expand…


                          This seems a little off to me. I would much prefer to know exactly what everyone in my profession in general and my company specifically makes.  Information asymmetry only helps the employer.  You should know whether you are over or under compensated relative to your peers and whether such differences come from performance or negotiation.

                          The fact that you only learned about the pay differential of different specialties after reading an internet forum speaks to the need for better financial awareness for docs.  I think most non-docs even know that.

                          Regarding net worth, I also think it’s good to know the ramifications of your decisions.  Seeing what others save with higher incomes, better savings rates, and wise investments should only help you make better decisions in the future.
                          Click to expand…


                          I understand what SPlum is saying.   There’s not a PCP around who isn’t aware of the pay differential between generalists and specialists.  The pay difference there often doesn’t come from negotiation or performance, it largely comes from how medical work is valued–i.e. procedural work is reimbursed much better than cognitive work.  You can place a stent for $$$$ or you can sit down and try to motivate a patient to stop smoking, eat better, exercise for $.   I think most doctors know the pay differential even when they are in med school.   It just doesn’t seem to be as big of a deal then (it all seems like a lot of money when you are used to making nothing), plus med students are often optimistic idealists to the extreme–you have to be to make it through.  PCPs and lower paid specialists can get frustrated if they try to compare themselves to higher paid specialists.  And in terms of making better decisions in the future–they can make some tweaks to increase their income, but it’s very unlikely that they will increase their income to the higher 6 figures, unless they have extraordinary business sense.  It’s very difficult to go back and do a second residency.  So they have to live with the ramifications of choosing the area of medicine that they did.  And sometimes doing so is better if they avoid the mindset of comparing themselves financially with specialists who make a lot more.

                          This is something I think it’s difficult for non-doctors to understand.  Few professions are as rigid in the career trajectory after the initial training period as is medicine.
                          Click to expand…


                          I get what SPlum is saying on the one hand as well, but it is a variation of ignorance is bliss.  I don’t ascribe to that philosophy.   I get that trajectories are set once you finish residency, fellowship, etc.  Maybe you can’t do anything radical about your own situation (although I suspect you can change specialties if you really wanted to make it happen), but part of being an adult is understanding the consequences of decisions without resorting to burrying head in sand.  At a minimum more info can help the person inform others.  Issues like this propagate because people don’t like to talk about them.  Feeling bad for myself because some people make more money than me is a strange concept to me, and trust me, in finance the discrepancies are larger and the reasons can be way more mysterious.
                          Click to expand…


                          i almost always learn something from every post you make.

                          i disagree with you in that i think ultimately it is disruptive to the work environment if everyone knows everyone else’s salary.  in that setting the measurable must change frequently otherwise people game the system.  ultimately i expect that would lead to all salaries being the same.  i think that reduces productivity, because in my view, 20% of people frequently are doing 80% of the work.  no way to get the 80% to match the lost productivity of the 20%.  of course I’m usually an idiot, and i look forward to your response teaching me another viewpoint.

                           
                          Click to expand...


                          Haha, thanks.  I’m a natural contrarian who likes to argue.  My overall philosophy is that if I can’t see the other person’s point of view in most matters that are not cut and dry (e.g. vaccines), it is probably me who is being dumb. I try to disrupt situations where I see an echo chamber forming, sometimes to my own personal detriment (ask my wife :P ).

                          To your point, knowing exactly what your colleague makes may do more harm than good by leading to resentment.  It wouldn’t bother me, but others put more of their self worth into their income/status/net worth than me.  I don’t judge them for it, to each his own.  I do think generally where your pay ranks with colleagues (e.g. quartile) would be helpful though.

                          Comment


















                          • Can I ask, what is the main purpose of this?

                             

                            As a primary care physician, it takes a significant amount of mental will power, as it is, to look past the many posts or articles that talk about the extra 6 figure amounts specialists are able to put away, while I focus on what is pertinent to my financial picture, and doing the best job that I can do with what I have.  I really DO NOT want to compare, as it can (and let’s be honest…  it WAS when I first started reading this website/forum) depressing to realize the pay differential between specialties.

                            Maybe some people like this.
                            I don’t want to compare to others, I just want to do my best with what I have.

                             

                            That being said I am very proud of what we have been able to do through a ton of hard work, sacrifice, and diligence.  If I posted my net worth, others might use it to feel like rockstars because their new worth is more. (and by all means- anyone who is hardworking and saving and reading this website – if they have more- yay!) – or maybe they would be wowed because I AM primary care- but I do not want to compare to anyone except my own potential.

                             
                            Click to expand…


                            This seems a little off to me. I would much prefer to know exactly what everyone in my profession in general and my company specifically makes.  Information asymmetry only helps the employer.  You should know whether you are over or under compensated relative to your peers and whether such differences come from performance or negotiation.

                            The fact that you only learned about the pay differential of different specialties after reading an internet forum speaks to the need for better financial awareness for docs.  I think most non-docs even know that.

                            Regarding net worth, I also think it’s good to know the ramifications of your decisions.  Seeing what others save with higher incomes, better savings rates, and wise investments should only help you make better decisions in the future.
                            Click to expand…


                            I understand what SPlum is saying.   There’s not a PCP around who isn’t aware of the pay differential between generalists and specialists.  The pay difference there often doesn’t come from negotiation or performance, it largely comes from how medical work is valued–i.e. procedural work is reimbursed much better than cognitive work.  You can place a stent for $$$$ or you can sit down and try to motivate a patient to stop smoking, eat better, exercise for $.   I think most doctors know the pay differential even when they are in med school.   It just doesn’t seem to be as big of a deal then (it all seems like a lot of money when you are used to making nothing), plus med students are often optimistic idealists to the extreme–you have to be to make it through.  PCPs and lower paid specialists can get frustrated if they try to compare themselves to higher paid specialists.  And in terms of making better decisions in the future–they can make some tweaks to increase their income, but it’s very unlikely that they will increase their income to the higher 6 figures, unless they have extraordinary business sense.  It’s very difficult to go back and do a second residency.  So they have to live with the ramifications of choosing the area of medicine that they did.  And sometimes doing so is better if they avoid the mindset of comparing themselves financially with specialists who make a lot more.

                            This is something I think it’s difficult for non-doctors to understand.  Few professions are as rigid in the career trajectory after the initial training period as is medicine.
                            Click to expand…


                            I get what SPlum is saying on the one hand as well, but it is a variation of ignorance is bliss.  I don’t ascribe to that philosophy.   I get that trajectories are set once you finish residency, fellowship, etc.  Maybe you can’t do anything radical about your own situation (although I suspect you can change specialties if you really wanted to make it happen), but part of being an adult is understanding the consequences of decisions without resorting to burrying head in sand.  At a minimum more info can help the person inform others.  Issues like this propagate because people don’t like to talk about them.  Feeling bad for myself because some people make more money than me is a strange concept to me, and trust me, in finance the discrepancies are larger and the reasons can be way more mysterious.
                            Click to expand…


                            i almost always learn something from every post you make.

                            i disagree with you in that i think ultimately it is disruptive to the work environment if everyone knows everyone else’s salary.  in that setting the measurable must change frequently otherwise people game the system.  ultimately i expect that would lead to all salaries being the same.  i think that reduces productivity, because in my view, 20% of people frequently are doing 80% of the work.  no way to get the 80% to match the lost productivity of the 20%.  of course I’m usually an idiot, and i look forward to your response teaching me another viewpoint.  ????

                             
                            Click to expand...


                            No way, this is an edict handed down and instilled in our brain from above forever. If all salaries were transparent, yes there would be a period of rough transitions and hurt feelings, however, that would lead to a better overall long term structure where everyone was paid more in line with reality and value. Yes, lots of overpaid people that dont bring anything to the table would suffer, but much more that do and get underpaid (allowing over payment to the skimmer) due to lack of knowledge would have improved outcomes. Overall good.

                            Comment





















                            • Can I ask, what is the main purpose of this?

                               

                              As a primary care physician, it takes a significant amount of mental will power, as it is, to look past the many posts or articles that talk about the extra 6 figure amounts specialists are able to put away, while I focus on what is pertinent to my financial picture, and doing the best job that I can do with what I have.  I really DO NOT want to compare, as it can (and let’s be honest…  it WAS when I first started reading this website/forum) depressing to realize the pay differential between specialties.

                              Maybe some people like this.
                              I don’t want to compare to others, I just want to do my best with what I have.

                               

                              That being said I am very proud of what we have been able to do through a ton of hard work, sacrifice, and diligence.  If I posted my net worth, others might use it to feel like rockstars because their new worth is more. (and by all means- anyone who is hardworking and saving and reading this website – if they have more- yay!) – or maybe they would be wowed because I AM primary care- but I do not want to compare to anyone except my own potential.

                               
                              Click to expand…


                              This seems a little off to me. I would much prefer to know exactly what everyone in my profession in general and my company specifically makes.  Information asymmetry only helps the employer.  You should know whether you are over or under compensated relative to your peers and whether such differences come from performance or negotiation.

                              The fact that you only learned about the pay differential of different specialties after reading an internet forum speaks to the need for better financial awareness for docs.  I think most non-docs even know that.

                              Regarding net worth, I also think it’s good to know the ramifications of your decisions.  Seeing what others save with higher incomes, better savings rates, and wise investments should only help you make better decisions in the future.
                              Click to expand…


                              I understand what SPlum is saying.   There’s not a PCP around who isn’t aware of the pay differential between generalists and specialists.  The pay difference there often doesn’t come from negotiation or performance, it largely comes from how medical work is valued–i.e. procedural work is reimbursed much better than cognitive work.  You can place a stent for $$$$ or you can sit down and try to motivate a patient to stop smoking, eat better, exercise for $.   I think most doctors know the pay differential even when they are in med school.   It just doesn’t seem to be as big of a deal then (it all seems like a lot of money when you are used to making nothing), plus med students are often optimistic idealists to the extreme–you have to be to make it through.  PCPs and lower paid specialists can get frustrated if they try to compare themselves to higher paid specialists.  And in terms of making better decisions in the future–they can make some tweaks to increase their income, but it’s very unlikely that they will increase their income to the higher 6 figures, unless they have extraordinary business sense.  It’s very difficult to go back and do a second residency.  So they have to live with the ramifications of choosing the area of medicine that they did.  And sometimes doing so is better if they avoid the mindset of comparing themselves financially with specialists who make a lot more.

                              This is something I think it’s difficult for non-doctors to understand.  Few professions are as rigid in the career trajectory after the initial training period as is medicine.
                              Click to expand…


                              I get what SPlum is saying on the one hand as well, but it is a variation of ignorance is bliss.  I don’t ascribe to that philosophy.   I get that trajectories are set once you finish residency, fellowship, etc.  Maybe you can’t do anything radical about your own situation (although I suspect you can change specialties if you really wanted to make it happen), but part of being an adult is understanding the consequences of decisions without resorting to burrying head in sand.  At a minimum more info can help the person inform others.  Issues like this propagate because people don’t like to talk about them.  Feeling bad for myself because some people make more money than me is a strange concept to me, and trust me, in finance the discrepancies are larger and the reasons can be way more mysterious.
                              Click to expand…


                              i almost always learn something from every post you make.

                              i disagree with you in that i think ultimately it is disruptive to the work environment if everyone knows everyone else’s salary.  in that setting the measurable must change frequently otherwise people game the system.  ultimately i expect that would lead to all salaries being the same.  i think that reduces productivity, because in my view, 20% of people frequently are doing 80% of the work.  no way to get the 80% to match the lost productivity of the 20%.  of course I’m usually an idiot, and i look forward to your response teaching me another viewpoint.  ????

                               
                              Click to expand…


                              No way, this is an edict handed down and instilled in our brain from above forever. If all salaries were transparent, yes there would be a period of rough transitions and hurt feelings, however, that would lead to a better overall long term structure where everyone was paid more in line with reality and value. Yes, lots of overpaid people that dont bring anything to the table would suffer, but much more that do and get underpaid (allowing over payment to the skimmer) due to lack of knowledge would have improved outcomes. Overall good.
                              Click to expand...


                              it depends on intangibles and nonmeasurables.  is there such a thing as team chemistry?  do low producers think they are low producers?  is the RVU system inherently unfair?  does it anchor us to certain beliefs which are otherwise not reasonable?

                              I'm still unpacking this in my head, and I appreciate your thoughts.  Thanks!

                               

                              Comment
























                              • Can I ask, what is the main purpose of this?

                                 

                                As a primary care physician, it takes a significant amount of mental will power, as it is, to look past the many posts or articles that talk about the extra 6 figure amounts specialists are able to put away, while I focus on what is pertinent to my financial picture, and doing the best job that I can do with what I have.  I really DO NOT want to compare, as it can (and let’s be honest…  it WAS when I first started reading this website/forum) depressing to realize the pay differential between specialties.

                                Maybe some people like this.
                                I don’t want to compare to others, I just want to do my best with what I have.

                                 

                                That being said I am very proud of what we have been able to do through a ton of hard work, sacrifice, and diligence.  If I posted my net worth, others might use it to feel like rockstars because their new worth is more. (and by all means- anyone who is hardworking and saving and reading this website – if they have more- yay!) – or maybe they would be wowed because I AM primary care- but I do not want to compare to anyone except my own potential.

                                 
                                Click to expand…


                                This seems a little off to me. I would much prefer to know exactly what everyone in my profession in general and my company specifically makes.  Information asymmetry only helps the employer.  You should know whether you are over or under compensated relative to your peers and whether such differences come from performance or negotiation.

                                The fact that you only learned about the pay differential of different specialties after reading an internet forum speaks to the need for better financial awareness for docs.  I think most non-docs even know that.

                                Regarding net worth, I also think it’s good to know the ramifications of your decisions.  Seeing what others save with higher incomes, better savings rates, and wise investments should only help you make better decisions in the future.
                                Click to expand…


                                I understand what SPlum is saying.   There’s not a PCP around who isn’t aware of the pay differential between generalists and specialists.  The pay difference there often doesn’t come from negotiation or performance, it largely comes from how medical work is valued–i.e. procedural work is reimbursed much better than cognitive work.  You can place a stent for $$$$ or you can sit down and try to motivate a patient to stop smoking, eat better, exercise for $.   I think most doctors know the pay differential even when they are in med school.   It just doesn’t seem to be as big of a deal then (it all seems like a lot of money when you are used to making nothing), plus med students are often optimistic idealists to the extreme–you have to be to make it through.  PCPs and lower paid specialists can get frustrated if they try to compare themselves to higher paid specialists.  And in terms of making better decisions in the future–they can make some tweaks to increase their income, but it’s very unlikely that they will increase their income to the higher 6 figures, unless they have extraordinary business sense.  It’s very difficult to go back and do a second residency.  So they have to live with the ramifications of choosing the area of medicine that they did.  And sometimes doing so is better if they avoid the mindset of comparing themselves financially with specialists who make a lot more.

                                This is something I think it’s difficult for non-doctors to understand.  Few professions are as rigid in the career trajectory after the initial training period as is medicine.
                                Click to expand…


                                I get what SPlum is saying on the one hand as well, but it is a variation of ignorance is bliss.  I don’t ascribe to that philosophy.   I get that trajectories are set once you finish residency, fellowship, etc.  Maybe you can’t do anything radical about your own situation (although I suspect you can change specialties if you really wanted to make it happen), but part of being an adult is understanding the consequences of decisions without resorting to burrying head in sand.  At a minimum more info can help the person inform others.  Issues like this propagate because people don’t like to talk about them.  Feeling bad for myself because some people make more money than me is a strange concept to me, and trust me, in finance the discrepancies are larger and the reasons can be way more mysterious.
                                Click to expand…


                                i almost always learn something from every post you make.

                                i disagree with you in that i think ultimately it is disruptive to the work environment if everyone knows everyone else’s salary.  in that setting the measurable must change frequently otherwise people game the system.  ultimately i expect that would lead to all salaries being the same.  i think that reduces productivity, because in my view, 20% of people frequently are doing 80% of the work.  no way to get the 80% to match the lost productivity of the 20%.  of course I’m usually an idiot, and i look forward to your response teaching me another viewpoint.  ????

                                 
                                Click to expand…


                                No way, this is an edict handed down and instilled in our brain from above forever. If all salaries were transparent, yes there would be a period of rough transitions and hurt feelings, however, that would lead to a better overall long term structure where everyone was paid more in line with reality and value. Yes, lots of overpaid people that dont bring anything to the table would suffer, but much more that do and get underpaid (allowing over payment to the skimmer) due to lack of knowledge would have improved outcomes. Overall good.
                                Click to expand…


                                it depends on intangibles and nonmeasurables.  is there such a thing as team chemistry?  do low producers think they are low producers?  is the RVU system inherently unfair?  does it anchor us to certain beliefs which are otherwise not reasonable?

                                I’m still unpacking this in my head, and I appreciate your thoughts.  Thanks!

                                 
                                Click to expand...


                                Almost no such thing as intangibles and nonmeasurables, thats what low producers say to justify themselves, j/k. Seriously though, if its not currently measured well, then there is definitely a way to figure it out, and if it turns out that it isnt, then they probably arent contributing as much as thought.

                                RVU is inherently unfair, from what I know about it its handed down from a central source that controls the coding/billing and all available rvu units/specialty, there is no way in the universe that is a 'fair' system, not even close.

                                Most beliefs are probably unreasonable, were all biased and crazy of course with our own self interest at heart.

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