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Discuss Latest WCI Blog Post: Raising Rent: Is Dave Ramsey Wrong?

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  • #16
    Tales from the dark side:

    There are millions of us out here in America who simply don't care what one religious person thinks of another religious person.

    You should try it, it's very relaxing, much more time for other activities. Plus you get to sleep in on Sundays as a bonus.

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    • #17
      I'm not an expert, but I think religious systems often intertwine with economic systems.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Anne View Post

        It really has nothing to do with it. But Dave Ramsey uses Christianity as his primary marketing tool.
        Not a follower, but I thought his primary marketing tool was to build wealth.

        I vaguely am familiar with the prosperity gospel and how getting rich aligns what God wants for you. As an atheist, I know why I want wealth, because I'm selfish and greedy.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by MPMD View Post
          Tales from the dark side:

          There are millions of us out here in America who simply don't care what one religious person thinks of another religious person.

          You should try it, it's very relaxing, much more time for other activities. Plus you get to sleep in on Sundays as a bonus.
          The world would be a much better place if this actually happened

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          • #20
            Only capitalism creates internet clickbait like this. I’m starting to prefer socialism.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by burritos View Post

              Not a follower, but I thought his primary marketing tool was to build wealth.

              I vaguely am familiar with the prosperity gospel and how getting rich aligns what God wants for you. As an atheist, I know why I want wealth, because I'm selfish and greedy.
              Building wealth would be what he claims to help with, not a marketing tool. And I’m not talking about prosperity gospel. He uses his self-proclaimed identity as a Christian to appeal to Christians in general, and uses churches and people who go to churches as free locations/teachers for his Financial Peace University and as the customers.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Dusn View Post
                Only capitalism creates internet clickbait like this. I’m starting to prefer socialism.
                +2 for extreme meta

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                • #23
                  I always think that it is funny when physicians are so pro-capitalism when so much of our income is dependent on government programs (medicare, medicaid, even government regulations on private insures). I think that physicians were previously under-paid prior to the development of medicare. That being said, I think that the strongest argument for capitalism being "moral" is that it raises more people out of poverty then socialism every could.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by blippi View Post
                    i think if you live in the u.s. and consider yourself a christian and capitalist there is an inherent tension that needs to be reconciled, imo often by rationalizing it away. wasn’t there some deal about jesus giving merchants and money lenders a hard time? weren’t christians not allowed to charge interest for centuries? why is it now okay? is there really a greater good from market efficiency alone (i say no) and doesn’t scarcity and lumpiness in rental property markets make them inefficient to the advantage of owners?

                    colonial exploitation was rationalized as elevating the savages and saving them with religion. cortes was catholic.

                    all well and good to say you are going to be a christian capitalist with a heart, but how many of your profitable acts are situated in rationalizations rather than the golden rule? open question.
                    Respectfully, as a Christian, I think you’ve made an incorrect assessment on nearly all accounts. There is nothing against a free economy and capitalism in the Bible. No mental gymnastics necessary. But you do need to understand the stories told.

                    I think you’re greatly misunderstanding the context of Jesus and the merchants. He flipped tables because of a couple reasons, none had to do with selling something or making profit. The people I’m question we’re selling animals to be sacrificed for the atonement of sin at the steps of a holy place. They were ripping off poor people for the forgiveness of sins. It wasn’t strictly that a business transaction occurred, it was how and where it was occurring that was the problem. Jesus was a carpenter - by definition, he participated in building a product and selling it. Pretty hard to make an argument that he is against selling a good or service for a price.

                    I’ve never heard of Christians being unable to charge interest. I think you have this confused with Islam. Quite the opposite is true. There is a parable of different servants getting different sums of money from their master while he is away. Two put the money to work and multiplied it. One buried it. The two that had more when the master came back we’re favored and the one who buried it was not, because he had used his money unwisely.

                    There’s a lot in the Bible about being a good steward. We believe all we have is a gift from God and we are only stewards. Similar to what Ramsey was talking about, if you are charging under market rent, you are not being a good steward.

                    And finally, someone doing something awful in the name of Christ means they are applying the faith wrong, but that the faith is wrong. The transplant surgeon who burned his initials into a patients liver means that he sucks, not that liver transplantation is wrong.

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                    • #25
                      With all due respect, I believe history is quite clear that for many centuries Christians were forbidden to charge interest. Please check Wikipedia under ‘Usery’. It’s unclear whether it’s a good idea to argue theology in a personal finance site but that is the express topic of the post about Ramsey and Christianity. I was raised in a devout Christian household but am now an atheist. Personally I have much more respect for the gospels than for the later theology of prosperity.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by VentAlarm View Post

                        Respectfully, as a Christian, I think you’ve made an incorrect assessment on nearly all accounts. There is nothing against a free economy and capitalism in the Bible. No mental gymnastics necessary. But you do need to understand the stories told.

                        I think you’re greatly misunderstanding the context of Jesus and the merchants. He flipped tables because of a couple reasons, none had to do with selling something or making profit. The people I’m question we’re selling animals to be sacrificed for the atonement of sin at the steps of a holy place. They were ripping off poor people for the forgiveness of sins. It wasn’t strictly that a business transaction occurred, it was how and where it was occurring that was the problem. Jesus was a carpenter - by definition, he participated in building a product and selling it. Pretty hard to make an argument that he is against selling a good or service for a price.

                        I’ve never heard of Christians being unable to charge interest. I think you have this confused with Islam. Quite the opposite is true. There is a parable of different servants getting different sums of money from their master while he is away. Two put the money to work and multiplied it. One buried it. The two that had more when the master came back we’re favored and the one who buried it was not, because he had used his money unwisely.

                        There’s a lot in the Bible about being a good steward. We believe all we have is a gift from God and we are only stewards. Similar to what Ramsey was talking about, if you are charging under market rent, you are not being a good steward.

                        And finally, someone doing something awful in the name of Christ means they are applying the faith wrong, but that the faith is wrong. The transplant surgeon who burned his initials into a patients liver means that he sucks, not that liver transplantation is wrong.
                        I told you there would be some hate.

                        VentAlarm, what you say is true, but honestly you are probably wasting your time even entering into a discussion here.

                        Same for me.

                        I am all for free speech.

                        I think it is fine for people to say what they want but I find it interesting how negative the mainstream media and society has become towards Christianity.

                        It is almost a badge of honor to say something derogatory.

                        I think that is sad.

                        My opinion is that most people are good.

                        Most Christians are good. Our founding fathers were christians and although not perfect they were pretty good people trying to do good work.

                        We live in a really great country founded on christian principles.

                        No group or person is perfect. All people should have the freedom to practice all religions in this country, free from persecution.

                        That is not true for many countries.

                        I find it extremely interesting that some people who feel they are: "tolerant" and progressive are quick to be very negative.

                        They are very quick to say negative things about people in rural America who are christians or who disagree with them politically, and whom they do not really know.

                        They would be outraged if someone said something negative about a muslim family but they are quick to say negative things about christians.

                        Live and let live. Golden rule.

                        Dave is not all bad. He helps a lot of people. He helped me.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by HiCOLAdoc View Post
                          With all due respect, I believe history is quite clear that for many centuries Christians were forbidden to charge interest. Please check Wikipedia under ‘Usery’. It’s unclear whether it’s a good idea to argue theology in a personal finance site but that is the express topic of the post about Ramsey and Christianity. I was raised in a devout Christian household but am now an atheist. Personally I have much more respect for the gospels than for the later theology of prosperity.
                          That says it is morally wrong to charge exorbitant interest. I think we can all agree that loan sharks and payday lenders are unethical.

                          That doesn’t negate the clear story of making interest in the Bible.

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                          • #28
                            point isn’t that christians are uniquely flawed. i fall short of my morals on a daily basis. when vfsax ticks up i imagine that the somali fishing enterprise i am funding caught a cargo ship that day.

                            it is to be mindful of when your actions fall short of your religious/moral beliefs (high standards in the case of most religions) and consider other ways of doing things, rather than rationalize those actions in order to keep doing it.

                            i think the ideas above about compartmentalizing religion and economic is a form of rationalization. can’t pause your religious beliefs when at work. don’t get a pass on morality, as the red shoe investor would say.
                            “. . . And the LORD spake, saying “First shalt thou take out the Holy 401k. Then shalt thou save to 20%, no more, no less. 20% shall be the number thou shalt save, and the number of the saving shall be 20%. 25% shalt thou not save, neither save thou 15%, excepting that thou then proceed to 20%. 30% is right out . . .””

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                            • #29
                              Nothing about religion on capitalism.

                              Good stewards of their company/business can possibly be related. I'm not sure if HomeGoods or Chick-Fil-a have better satisfaction/retention and customer satisfactions because their religious underpinnings. I'm sure sad when I want my spicy chicken on Sunday from Chick-Fil-a though; but happy their workers get a day of rest.

                              Raising rent isn't one of them. Slum lord? Probably more the flavor of 'doing what's right'.

                              In today's society in America, 'religious' really doesn't fall square on many traditional teachings, and certainly 'love thy neighbor' rings hallow across much of pandemic America.

                              So no-- religion, not associated with capitalism whatsoever.

                              People simply can be ruthless capitalists -- full stop.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Tangler View Post
                                Communism didn’t mix so well with Christianity either.

                                Communism & Socialism sound nice and appeal emotionally but never work as intended.

                                You can be a capitalist without being a jerk.

                                I would argue that the golden rule is something every business owner should use.

                                Many do and it creates a loyal customer following, and it genuinely makes life better.

                                If your costs increase (inflation) and you need to raise prices, ok.

                                If your costs increase and you don’t mind losing $ and can afford it and you don’t increase prices, ok.

                                Dave is not perfect, but he does help people.

                                He has helped a lot of people and he does way more good than bad.

                                He helped me tremendously in 2005 when i was in too much debt and did not have a plan or understand how dangerous debt can be. There was no WCI. I had 300k in student loans consolidated at 6% and just bought a house i did not need (another 300k of debt at 5.5% for 30 years) and was unfocused, disorganized and had no direction.

                                He gave me a plan. Not a perfect plan, but a simple plan that made sense and it was needed.

                                His investing advice is suboptimal (he should recommend a bogleheads 3 fund portfolio based on age and risk tolerance in my opinion) but he is a good guy IMO.

                                I know he gets a lot of hate.

                                He will get a lot of hate here (just watch) but overall two things:
                                1. He really helped me. Huge!
                                2. He does way more good than bad.
                                It's totally reasonable to raise costs if your costs increase. I think that raising the rent on good tenants just because you can, and raising it enough that your tenants need to move, is not as reasonable if you want to be a "good christian". I think it's tough to be a "good christian" if you're concerned about maximizing your money imo, and if you're in the business of providing shelter it's even trickier. I wouldn't feel bad about raising the price of some luxury good no one needs just because.

                                I'm also biased against dave ramsey because i think his investing and student loan advice is unacceptably bad considering his background and the authority he has.

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