I don’t feel that rich.

[Kamban]

I wasn't aware of the Ankers, I guess that makes me an Apple sheep?

Question is, do you think the Ankers are a superior product to airpods?

I got my wife a skullcaddy from Costco for $35 which is like Airpods but works with our Samsung too. Was only $55. My wife loves the sound quality and states it is as good as some pricier wired in-ear headphones she had before ( when there were headphone jacks). They charge in case using usb-c.

[Tim]

This is even weirder, but I almost already feel rich even as a med student. I feel so ahead of the game knowing about investments and I'll have 10+ years of investing as a personal finance hobbyist under my belt before I even get that first attending paycheck. Anything can happen to derail that for sure, but right now it feels like I'm on autopilot to being pretty darn wealthy without any unreasonable assumptions. That's pretty cool and definitely provides a level of mental peace right now even though I have a negative net worth.

This is called hope. I hope things go well. Hope is not a plan. Without a plan it is just a wish (with disappointments). Please note, it’s not about the money (negative now), it’s the value of planning.
Stay the course. You got this.

[Tangler]

I really don't get the airpods. Aren't they like 200 bucks? For the past several years I've had these over the ear around the back of the head Bluetooth headphones that I bought for 25 bucks and they worked great. The past year I've been using the aftershocks bone conduction and even that was only $75. My old one lasted 20 plus hours on a charge and even these aftershocks last at least 10. I feel like airpods are only a thing because it's another Apple product that people have to pair with their phone and their watch. Dare I say status symbol?

Amen!

[F0017S0]

Thanks for the kind words!

This is also unrelated to the fact that, like most med students, I've never had to worry about food or shelter. Sure, right now buying a car might be tough, but in the grand scheme of things I do have access to loans and/or parental help if I was really in dire straits.

Just finally looking over my spending for the last year since I didn't like not really knowing what was going on and I decided to try YNAB for the next year at least; looking forward to getting a more granular understanding of things.

Turf Doc: as I plan for my applications and eventual transition to medical school, how do you get around the mental block that you are spending someone else's money? How do you summon the confidence to look so far into the uncertain future that spending that loan money today will get you to the attending salary to allow you to pay it back in the distant future? I don't worry about the intellectual part of medical school and residency, but the system almost seems like gambling in a way...

[Turf Doc]

Turf Doc: as I plan for my applications and eventual transition to medical school, how do you get around the mental block that you are spending someone else's money? How do you summon the confidence to look so far into the uncertain future that spending that loan money today will get you to the attending salary to allow you to pay it back in the distant future? I don't worry about the intellectual part of medical school and residency, but the system almost seems like gambling in a way...

I personally don't have too much of a mental block because loans are an accepted/reasonable way to pay for med school in the US and docs make a high income, especially certain specialties.

You're right, there's no guarantee that anything works out. But realistically, my understanding is that basically since the history of the US and almost every other country, doctors have done very well. I think that the assumption that things will look similar in the future is more reasonable than the assumption that they will be very different. And even if pay decreases, doctors will still to very well compared to almost anyone else in society and will always have a job that is meaningful, and that's obviously worth something.

I always get a kick out of reading old forum posts. 10, 15, 20 years ago people CONVINCED that the sky is falling, in x years salary is going to be nothing, obamacare is going to make us paupers, the job market is never coming back (looking at you rads), etc etc. And even after all that things are totally fine and very similar to what they were before.

I do think that if early financial independence and/or retiring early is a priority consider how the math works if you can only see yourself in primary care and you don't have a state school you could reasonably end up at. Doing the math on your expected loan burden and if you can pay that off in PP or what your lifestyle looks like at a PSLF job for a while makes me feel a lot better about the loans I'm taking out.

[Tim]

Turf Doc: as I plan for my applications and eventual transition to medical school, how do you get around the mental block that you are spending someone else's money? How do you summon the confidence to look so far into the uncertain future that spending that loan money today will get you to the attending salary to allow you to pay it back in the distant future? I don't worry about the intellectual part of medical school and residency, but the system almost seems like gambling in a way...

This is a healthy behavioral finance consideration. Intellectual part would probably be an extremely small fraction of the causes of not successfully becoming a physician. The success rate is very high, The risk is probably about poor decisions, not the loans.

[F0017S0]

Turf Doc: thanks for sharing your insights; I really appreciate it! I don't expect to matriculate until a couple years from now, but it is mind boggling and knot-in-stomach inducing what my peers from undergrad have told me what their loan balances are (especially since I've been saving money like crazy the past several years). My goal would be specialty practice (emergency/trauma, nuclear medicine/radiology, pathology, surgery are of interest to me). My goal is to be "less underwater" than my peers were at residency start...

[F0017S0]

This is a healthy behavioral finance consideration. Intellectual part would probably be an extremely small fraction of the causes of not successfully becoming a physician. The success rate is very high, The risk is probably about poor decisions, not the loans.

Tim: thanks for your thoughts! Although I am fortunately only familiar with one person who "washed out" at the end of MS-2. Other than that, all of my other friends have gone through the process just fine.

I have never been a big fan of loans, outside of a few specific instances (i.e. conforming mortgage). I'm fortunate to not owe anyone anything at this point, so I consider carefully any "easy loan product" as bordering on insane (as is the current practice with education financing). For me, I coalesced around a philosophy (whether it's right or wrong could be debated) that can best be summed up as this: "the word loans begins with the letter 'l' and ends with the letter 's'; coincidentally those are the first letters of the words loser and sucker."

[Turf Doc]

Turf Doc: thanks for sharing your insights; I really appreciate it! I don't expect to matriculate until a couple years from now, but it is mind boggling and knot-in-stomach inducing what my peers from undergrad have told me what their loan balances are (especially since I've been saving money like crazy the past several years). My goal would be specialty practice (emergency/trauma, nuclear medicine/radiology, pathology, surgery are of interest to me). My goal is to be "less underwater" than my peers were at residency start...

From a net worth-at-death perspective, the answer is almost surely to go into med school ASAP. But if psychologically loan burdens are painful, there's obviously some benefits to time off before med school and I'm actually seeing that now. I'm judging my financial position at the end of med school as a net worth thing, not strictly a student loan thing, since I can always cash out roth accounts if i really wanted to (even though I wouldnt). From that perspective i'll probably have about 50k greater net worth at the end of med school now that I had time off compared to if i went straight through, although the latter would result in more money long-term I do appreciate the psychological benefits of having "less" in loans!

And although investing is "risky" i have "made" about 10k in roth thanks to the insane past few years we've had. Maybe you're already doing this but I'd be maxing roths if i were you just so you dont lose that space right now, can always take it out if you want the guaranteed return of the student loan interest rate.

[F0017S0]

Turf Doc: for sure I have been investing for years. I started in 2014 funding, Roth/Traditional IRAs and a brokerage account. At work, I fund an HSA, and Roth/Traditional 401(k) and 403(b) accounts (all four). Overall, including market returns, I have stashed away approximately $135k, about 50/50 Roth to Traditional. I hope to work a little while longer for more references and a fatter balance sheet in assets not reported on the FAFSA (i.e. retirement accounts).

[afan]

I use an operational definition of rich. It has nothing to do with how much someone else may have, whether I know them or not.

I define it as able to live a luxurious lifestyle, in perpetuity, without working and with no realistic concern of running down assets.

I define luxurious as spending $1M per year. I realize that there are people for whom $1M would not cover the salaries of the crew of their smallest yacht. Nonetheless, that is the figure I use.

If I live to life expectancy, maybe I will spend $1M in my remaining lifetime. Doing it in a year level of spending far beyond anything I would contemplate, even if I could afford it.

From there, I figure one needs $2M in income to spend $1M after taxes. Using 10 year T-notes as the perfectly safe investment, one would need just under $160M to be rich by this definition.

I will never be rich.

We have enough to live our lives without confronting poverty and expect to be net savers throughout retirement.

I am psychologically incapable of buying something without checking the price. As I go through the grocery store I tally up the cost of everything I buy, so I know what the bill will be by the time I get in line. I cannot imagine this will ever change. Back before I used a credit card for such purchases, I used to startle the clerks (when there were checkout clerks) by having the exact amount in cash in my hand when they started ringing up my purchase.

I doubt I have ever bought the most expensive item at a restaurant. Since we don't drink and we don't go to expensive restaurants, the bill is never high.

I am not rich and never will be. I have enough to live the life I want to live but that does not require being wealthy.

[VentAlarm]

I use an operational definition of rich. It has nothing to do with how much someone else may have, whether I know them or not.

I define it as able to live a luxurious lifestyle, in perpetuity, without working and with no realistic concern of running down assets.

I define luxurious as spending $1M per year. I realize that there are people for whom $1M would not cover the salaries of the crew of their smallest yacht. Nonetheless, that is the figure I use.

If I live to life expectancy, maybe I will spend $1M in my remaining lifetime. Doing it in a year level of spending far beyond anything I would contemplate, even if I could afford it.

From there, I figure one needs $2M in income to spend $1M after taxes. Using 10 year T-notes as the perfectly safe investment, one would need just under $160M to be rich by this definition.

I will never be rich.

We have enough to live our lives without confronting poverty and expect to be net savers throughout retirement.

I am psychologically incapable of buying something without checking the price. As I go through the grocery store I tally up the cost of everything I buy, so I know what the bill will be by the time I get in line. I cannot imagine this will ever change. Back before I used a credit card for such purchases, I used to startle the clerks (when there were checkout clerks) by having the exact amount in cash in my hand when they started ringing up my purchase.

I doubt I have ever bought the most expensive item at a restaurant. Since we don't drink and we don't go to expensive restaurants, the bill is never high.

I am not rich and never will be. I have enough to live the life I want to live but that does not require being wealthy.

You’re joking, right?

[Tangler]

You’re joking, right?

yeah. The whole point of being FI (and most of the people on this forum over 45 are in this boat) is that when you go to a restaurant you get what looks yummy.

Store, same. You get everything on the list and then look around for what is in season or what your family will be excited to see when you get home (healthy of course).

I would rather move to a lower cost of living place or if in a HCOL place find a smaller home than count pennies.

If I cannot get what I want when I go to a restaurant, I just don't go. Food is usually better at home anyway, but if I go and there is a duck leg with blah blah and it looks amazing, but overrpriced, screw it, that thing is going in my tummy!

I drive a civic.......cars mean nothing to me........I live in a townhouse.....don't need a big house....I fish out of a kayak, don't need a big-@$$ boat, but when it comes to food, I listen to my mother-in-law who lives with me and has terminal CA.

She told me one day when I bought something cheap (steak I think?) she said: "Listen, we don't save money on food. You get the best food in the store. You save money some other place, but don't bring home cheap food. "

Words of wisdom from a little 81 year old Japanese women. She also once told me: "your brain..........it is not so good".

She is awesome and she is right. Do NOT go cheap on food. Life is too short. Healthy food? ok. Cheap food? No way.

[Tangler]

You’re joking, right?

Oh yeah, and the idea the being "rich" means spending millions is nuts too.

That is the kind of elitist bs that the average dude finds ridiculous.

Every doc on this forum is rich. We won the lottery. We practice medicine in the richest country in the world.

The top 1% of the world lives off 36k per year. The average family in the USA does better than that.

But the food......."don't buy cheap food!"

[artemis]

I have enough to live the life I want to live but that does not require being wealthy.

And that means you are rich (in all the ways that REALLY count). In the end, isn't living a happy and fulfilling life what really matters?