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Discuss Latest POF Blog Post: Indulge and Enjoy Life Along The Way to FI

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  • Discuss Latest POF Blog Post: Indulge and Enjoy Life Along The Way to FI

    One of the biggest misconceptions of the FIRE movement is that one must delay gratification indefinitely, not taking the time ... Read more

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    Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

  • #2
    Other than the ritual apologies for privilege, I found myself complete agreeing with his points. It is helpful and reinforcing to read common sense laid out in a compelling way.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Larry Ragman View Post
      Other than the ritual apologies for privilege, I found myself complete agreeing with his points. It is helpful and reinforcing to read common sense laid out in a compelling way.
      Thanks -- I think he does a good job of addressing one of the biggest criticisms (and in some cases misconceptions) of people pursuing FIRE. It doesn't have to be all rice, beans, and no fun.

      As for the privilege disclaimer, I see an acknowledgment, not an apology. There's a distinct difference between recognizing something and feeling as though you should be sorry for something.

      Comment


      • #4
        Not the way I see it Leif. We may not be able to agree on this issue of privilege, but I’ll take a shot at why I disagree using your framing of “acknowledgment.” He and others that make these sorts of “acknowledgments” proceed from a flawed premise. In the first place, his personal advantages were quite irrelevant to the rest of the article. All his following points stand without the “acknowledgment” of privilege. But I could have let it go if he had not thrown in the racial component. My second point is that the privilege that pertains stems not from being White, but from being in America with our rule of law, protection of individual rights notably property, higher education (we would formerly say public education but that is suspect these days), and access to capital. With all that, it still takes a sense of purpose, drive, ambition, and hard work to succeed. To claim success in that environment as a function of race is insulting to underprivileged Whites who make it despite their initial disadvantages, which are economic, not racial. And more to the point it denies agency to people of color regardless of their economic status, who can and do succeed in America (Too many public examples to name, but they are legion). Unfortunately, many starting out today are taught to use race as an excuse not to do so. So, whether you see it as an apology for privilege or acknowledgement of privilege, the desire to include it has become a ritual formulation that undermines the very system that generates success in America and makes us to this day a magnet for immigration from around the world.

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        • #5
          Amusing that you would cite access to capital as an American advantage that is equally available to all in America.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Shant View Post
            Amusing that you would cite access to capital as an American advantage that is equally available to all in America.
            Why, don’t you think it is? There is far more money than good ideas to start businesses. Companies list on our exchanges for access to our capital markets. Now we even crowd source money. We even can get free money on the internet (Go Fund me.) Most anyone can get a student loan. Most anyone with a job can get a credit card, and in many cases a mortgage. Etc. Access to capital is a true advantage in America in a way that is not the case for billions of people elsewhere in the world.

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            • #7
              Wow the wow privilege really triggered some people.

              I loathe to touch on the racial rant above but I will say that people who are successful tend to have more of a choice mindset (attributing their success mostly to their choices). This is not to say that choices do not play a role in success. Often failure is overly attributed to circumstances. Clearly, both play a role and it is challenging (at best) to assign relative importance. Just because there are some people that overcome adverse circumstances does not mean anyone can overcome the circumstances of their birth.

              I think the intro was to give a disclaimer that one should not indulge prematurely (e.g. if you have credit cards unpaid not time to indulge). I agree with the article. Sometimes FIRE communities indulges in frugality porn where everyone wants to brag about driving the worst car or spending the least money (while judging middle class folks that overspend on their cars or other choices). It is important to spend on things that make you happy and not on things that are expected if they don't make you happy.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Gamma Knives View Post
                Wow the wow privilege really triggered some people.

                I loathe to touch on the racial rant above but I will say that people who are successful tend to have more of a choice mindset (attributing their success mostly to their choices). This is not to say that choices do not play a role in success. Often failure is overly attributed to circumstances. Clearly, both play a role and it is challenging (at best) to assign relative importance. Just because there are some people that overcome adverse circumstances does not mean anyone can overcome the circumstances of their birth.

                I think the intro was to give a disclaimer that one should not indulge prematurely (e.g. if you have credit cards unpaid not time to indulge). I agree with the article. Sometimes FIRE communities indulges in frugality porn where everyone wants to brag about driving the worst car or spending the least money (while judging middle class folks that overspend on their cars or other choices). It is important to spend on things that make you happy and not on things that are expected if they don't make you happy.
                Rant? Hmmm, perhaps it was to a certain way of thinking.

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                • #9
                  IBTL

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by childay View Post
                    IBTL
                    Because debate about how to succeed is not allowed?

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                    • #11
                      Pushing past the privilege stuff I agree with the rest of the article. I would not trade our lake home for being able to retire 5 yrs earlier. Is it a luxury? Sure, but worth it to me.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Larry Ragman View Post
                        Because debate about how to succeed is not allowed?
                        I must have missed the debate on how to succeed.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Larry Ragman View Post
                          Rant? Hmmm, perhaps it was to a certain way of thinking.
                          Perhaps rant was a poor word choice. I am not sure what "a certain way of thinking" means. But I apologize for the inflammatory descriptor.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Larry Ragman View Post
                            My second point is that the privilege that pertains stems not from being White, but from being in America with our rule of law, protection of individual rights notably property, higher education (we would formerly say public education but that is suspect these days), and access to capital. With all that, it still takes a sense of purpose, drive, ambition, and hard work to succeed.
                            In response to Anne: Taking advantage of opportunities present in the US with educated persistence.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Anne View Post

                              I must have missed the debate on how to succeed.
                              Be born rich.

                              edit: ". . .a child from the bottom quartile of socioeconomic status who has high test scores in kindergarten has only a 3 in 10 chance of having a college education and a good entry-level job as a young adult, compared to a 7 in 10 chance for a child in the top quartile of socioeconomic status who has low test scores."

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