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  • #16
    Ok. So this is important stuff and I think will help everyone. I have made a Survey Monkey 5 question survey to collect this data. All answers will be anonymous and available at Dads, Dollars, and Debts (my website as results come in here- https://www.dadsdollarsanddebts.com/dollar-per-rvu-results/  )

    Okay to take the anonymous survey please follow this survey monkey link! If I missed your subspecialty please let me know. The power is in the data and the more specific it is.

     

    https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/DTRHJBB

     

    Thanks and stay tuned for Trjsnperancy in RVUs.

    - EJ

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    • #17
      Here's a point in the hospital's favor (don't kill me!)- I went back and calculated my RVU index adding my student loan repayment as salary which brings that number to $56/wRVU. Nevermind 401k and other benefits, I don't think they necessarily apply here. The point is: the salary amount isn't always the entire story so compare contracts wisely.

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      • #18
        Those statista stats are exactly right for my specialty, though I've been offered from 26% less to $13% more than average (oddly, both extremes came from very similar small, city-owned hospitals).  The docs in the private shareholder group with which I interviewed are making 40%/wRVU more than average, based on their collections.  Seeing that last number was helpful to me in ball-parking how much margin the hospitals likely have.

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        • #19




          My RVU index is 41.67 as a FP in Midwest urban city (Omaha, NE). I was told this was the “high end” of the spectrum and that there would not be much room to go up at this time. Not sure if this is accurate or a reasonable rate, but I agree that the more information available, the better off we’ll all be.
          Click to expand...


          I don't think that is at the high end.  I would look into it if I were you.  Either they had bad data or were trying to negotiate your comp down.  The last figures for FP without OB that I saw for the midwest were from 2013 data reported in 2014.  I bet comp is higher now.  Back then:

          AMGA National median = $42.52

          AMGA National mean = 45.80

          MGMA National median = $43.63 (Midwest = $45.25)

          MGMA National mean = $55.19  (Midwest = $54.70)

          75th percentiles were around $53/ wRVU

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          • #20




            Here’s a point in the hospital’s favor (don’t kill me!)- I went back and calculated my RVU index adding my student loan repayment as salary which brings that number to $56/wRVU. Nevermind 401k and other benefits, I don’t think they necessarily apply here. The point is: the salary amount isn’t always the entire story so compare contracts wisely.
            Click to expand...


            All that counts as salary 100% since its a cost to your employer. Your benefits and salary really are all just cash and should be thought of as a pool. If you were in private practice/self employed you'd be paying for that and explains some of the private practice gap. Caveat is that you get to choose which benefits you want so more tailored and value there, but its real.

            Makes it a hard cross comparison though since most other places have benefits as well, though their mix is different likely. For comparisons sake I'd probably toss it.

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            • #21


              Click to expand...






              According to my hospital, MGMA median for psychiatry is $37.   I am paid ~$50 in the rural south though I also have non-productivity compensation.

               

              Also found this but no clue if accurate:

              https://www.statista.com/statistics/293878/compensation-per-rvu-of-us-physicians-by-specialty/
              Click to expand...


              I would question your hospital's data.  I routinely hear $60-65 per wRVU in psych as the going rate.

              The below data lists the median salary by specialty and annual wRVU.  You can easily extrapolate the average compensation per wRVU, and for psychiatry, that turns out to be around $62.  I am in the $65 range in a rural western town.  None of these major surveys, for the record, include benefits in these calculations.

              http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/compensation-issues/2015-physician-compensation-work-rvu-by-specialty.html

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              • #22




                My hospital supplies me annually with the survey data from two of the organizations mentioned above.  I forget what the names of them are.  These give the regional index, we call them conversion factors.  I would say if in negotiations a hospital system should be able to provide you with the same data.  They are basing their conversion factor on these surveys so ask to see them.
                Click to expand...


                But don't settle for the national median for your specialty if you are:

                male

                not in academic practice

                Board Certified

                located in Midwest or South

                rural rather than urban or suburban

                 

                These characteristics are associated with higher compensation than the median. You have to ask for the data specific to your circumstances.

                On the other hand, if you are an urban, academic female on the coast without board certification, negotiate based on the median compensation.
                Erstwhile Dance Theatre of Dayton performer cum bellhop. Carried (many) bags for a lovely and gracious 59 yo Cyd Charisse. (RIP) Hosted epic company parties after Friday night rehearsals.

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                • #23
                  1. I just took my first job out of residency. It is a 2yr guaranteed, with 3rd year being production (with 20% paid out bi-annually based on metrics).
                  The contract lays out the compensation structure but does not provide wRVU targets (under Projected wRVUs: its says "N/A") (this is something that I'm concerned about now). Because suppose employer tracks my wRVUs and then sets targets that are too high.

                  2. Can someone calrify more about this wRVU index.
                  wRVU index = [yearly salary] / [total wRVUs/yr] ?

                  3. How do you use wRVU index in negotiations?
                  --is this something that the perspective employer provides? or do you have to seek out current employees there, find out their salary and wRVU targets and then calculate yourself?

                  CMS makes a searchable database where you can lookup wRVUs for each code.
                  https://www.cms.gov/apps/physician-fee-schedule/search/search-criteria.aspx

                   

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Agreed that salary is not the whole picture. For instance, salary only accounts for 60% of my compensation. We have a great 401K match, pension, free health insurance, other insurances etc.

                     

                    Still, having a understanding of the dollar per RVU for your field in your city (and I do not think you should include loan repayment or sign on bonuses in this) will allow for easier negotiations when taking a job. It will also allow for better decisions for physicians (especially as we all become employees now).

                     

                    That is why I am trying to compile data on this survey:  https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/DTRHJBB

                    I will start sharing the results once I have at least 100 data points.

                     

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      1) Ask them if they even track RVUS, because if they don't then it does not matter. For instance, my employer does not track RVUs and my pay is not based on it. My prior employee would dish out a bonus based on RVU production above my low base pay. This way they could vary the total pay (base + bonus annually). Unfortunately, there was never a stated dollar/RVU amount and so it varied quite a bit each year.

                       

                      2) Typically I think of dollars per RVUs as salary/RVU. I do not factor in loan repayment, sign on bonuses, or benefits. These should all be factored in your decision on the job. If you are expected to produce RVUs and be paid for them, then it is important to know this number. I had one contract with a guarantee in years 1 and 2. After that it was all productivity driven with a dollar per RVU stated on the contract.

                       

                      3) Slippery slope to determine how to negotiate with RVU knowledge. I guess it depends on how desperate you are for the job, but knowledge is power. So let's get some more data on this survey I am running:

                      https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/DTRHJBB

                       

                      -EJ

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        RVUs cannot be compared between specialties, only within specialties. That is because each specialty has its own unique codes which may make up the majority of their billings, and those unique codes have unique RVU values. For example the most important codes in my practice are 90833 and 90792, but I bet you don't know what those mean unless you're a psychiatrist. I do also bill 99213 and 99214 and 99232 and 99233, like a lot of other folks, but they aren't the most critical (read: valuable) codes to me.

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                        • #27
                          Just pay a few hundred bucks and get the MGMA data.

                          Comment


                          • #28





                            Click to expand…






                            According to my hospital, MGMA median for psychiatry is $37.   I am paid ~$50 in the rural south though I also have non-productivity compensation.

                             

                            Also found this but no clue if accurate:

                            https://www.statista.com/statistics/293878/compensation-per-rvu-of-us-physicians-by-specialty/
                            Click to expand…


                            I would question your hospital’s data.  I routinely hear $60-65 per wRVU in psych as the going rate.

                            The below data lists the median salary by specialty and annual wRVU.  You can easily extrapolate the average compensation per wRVU, and for psychiatry, that turns out to be around $62.  I am in the $65 range in a rural western town.  None of these major surveys, for the record, include benefits in these calculations.

                            http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/compensation-issues/2015-physician-compensation-work-rvu-by-specialty.html
                            Click to expand...


                            Interesting.  As I mentioned though I do have a stipend in addition so perhaps it evens out..

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I quite dont get the calculation of $/RVU. For the example in psychiatry the beckerhospitalreview the  link says

                              Compensation: $254,942
                              wRVU: 4,079

                              254,942/4709= 54.13. How the   $62 is calculated  from that data?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                $46 per wRVU here in Phoenix

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