Ukraine War... How much will S&P drop this week?

[Perry Ict]

someone explain why we need to fight proxy war with Russia to weaken Russia and apparently China? how does that help Americans?

That's a great question. I don't think it benefits most Americans, aside from a select few who might benefit from US hegemony over the world.

[CordMcNally]

That's a great question. I don't think it benefits most Americans, aside from a select few who might benefit from US hegemony over the world.

War always benefits somebody. It hurts a lot more people than it benefits but the people who it benefits the most are also usually the people making the decisions to go to war.

[Kamban]

people who it benefits the most are also usually the people making the decisions to go to war.

And making sure that their sons or daughters are never in the front lines risking their lives and find a way to get a deferment because of painful bunions or find a way for them to stay within USA in the reserves / Guard.

[Perry Ict]

I am not anti American at all and would be willing to give my life for my adopted country if we were to be directly attacked.

Why did we goad and continue our expansion of NATO right up to the Russian border. Once Ukraine joints NATO, there is nothing to prevent it from having nuclear weapons aimed at Russia. And Russia does not like it and said so and yet we ignored them think they were bluffing. They called our bluff.

Before you say that Ukraine is an independent nation and has a right to decide whether it wants to join NATO or not, well why did we make a huge fuss when Cuba was allowing Soviet union to install missiles on its soil aiming at USA 90 miles away. We did not like it and had a stand off and naval blockage that could have triggered WWIII. We will never allow Mexico to be close allies of Russia or China. Yet we want to be in Ukraine by proxy. It is do as I say, not as I do.

The problem is our biased western media which only prints the western point of view. And most importantly, the military industrial complex which needs to have one war or the other going on at all times in order to keep themselves relevant and make money. If we had peace, they will have no relevance. Even if we settle the Ukraine situation to our benefit, they will incite the Taiwan situation next. They want money, we lose lives.

The people of US and Russia don't hate each other. It is just the leaders that hate each other and both militaries are triggered.

Really good points you make, especially the one about the western media bubble. If there were more exposure to non-western viewpoints (not just Russian and Chinese, but also Indian, African, Latin American, etc), I imagine that there would be fiercer resistance to current US policy of sending endless billions $ of "lethal aid", intelligence personnel, and now US troops.

I've heard some compare the current situation to that of the Cuban Missile Crisis or possibly worse. Unfortunately, unlike last time, we don't have anyone in this White house that remotely resembles JFK. De-escalation is doesn't seem to be on the agenda, neither with Russia nor with China.

[Tim]

We're already involved. Would you like to escalate the conflict?

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/07/us-inflation-reduction-act-eu-raises-concerns-risks-wto-dispute.html

Seems like a new front is opening in Western Europe.
No good deed shall go unpunished. I thought this was a united global objective at any cost?

[Panscan]

Really good points you make, especially the one about the western media bubble. If there were more exposure to non-western viewpoints (not just Russian and Chinese, but also Indian, African, Latin American, etc), I imagine that there would be fiercer resistance to current US policy of sending endless billions $ of "lethal aid", intelligence personnel, and now US troops.

I've heard some compare the current situation to that of the Cuban Missile Crisis or possibly worse. Unfortunately, unlike last time, we don't have anyone in this White house that remotely resembles JFK. De-escalation is doesn't seem to be on the agenda, neither with Russia nor with China.

think the lack of de escalation is on Putin. He has badly lost plain and simple and will not give it up

[Tim]

think the lack of de escalation is on Putin. He has badly lost plain and simple and will not give it up

I get confused by the inconsistent goals and objectives: foreign policy, economic policy, military policy and energy policy and election politics. I can understand why Putin is having a hard time figuring a way out of this mess.

[FIREshrink]

I am not anti American at all and would be willing to give my life for my adopted country if we were to be directly attacked.

Why did we goad and continue our expansion of NATO right up to the Russian border. Once Ukraine joints NATO, there is nothing to prevent it from having nuclear weapons aimed at Russia. And Russia does not like it and said so and yet we ignored them thinking they were bluffing. They called our bluff.

Before you say that Ukraine is an independent nation and has a right to decide whether it wants to join NATO or not, well why did we make a huge fuss when Cuba was allowing Soviet Union to install missiles on its soil aiming at USA 90 miles away. We did not like it and had a stand off and naval blockage that could have triggered WWIII. We will never allow Mexico to be close allies of Russia or China. Yet we want to be in Ukraine by proxy. It is do as I say, not as I do.

The problem is our biased western media which only prints the western point of view. And most importantly, the military industrial complex which needs to have one war or the other going on at all times in order to keep themselves relevant and make money. If we had peace, they will have no relevance. Even if we settle the Ukraine situation to our benefit, they will incite the Taiwan situation next. They want money, we lose lives.

The people of US and Russia don't hate each other. It is just the leaders that hate each other
and both militaries are triggered.

this is overly simplistic and kind of like victim-blaming. NATO has long maintained extremely close relationships and an open door policy with many nations including Finland, which shares an 800 mile border directly with Russia. Surely you aren't suggesting that if Russia invaded Finland that we (the US) or NATO or Finland kind of brought it on thrmselves? Were we goading Russia there (even before Finland voted to join NATO)?

[Perry Ict]

As Kamban mentioned, we don't even have to speculate on whether we'd tolerate Russia or China arming nearby countries with missiles aimed at our cities, it's right there in the historical record.

Hopefully we can all agree that diplomacy is the better alternative to WW3 and risk of nuclear annihilation.

[Kamban]

this is overly simplistic and kind of like victim-blaming. NATO has long maintained extremely close relationships and an open door policy with many nations including Finland, which shares an 800 mile border directly with Russia. Surely you aren't suggesting that if Russia invaded Finland that we (the US) or NATO or Finland kind of brought it on thrmselves? Were we goading Russia there (even before Finland voted to join NATO)?

Surely you can differentiate between an independent Nordic country and former Soviet republic. They did not want the latter to become a NATO country and wanted a buffer. Just like we did not want Cuba to become part of Warshaw and point missiles at us. And did China and Russia help Iraq when we invaded it based on false WMD claims made by a former POTUS.

Anyway this thread is getting too political and getting away from its original premise and hence I will bow out of it. I think the S&P has started to rise again.

[jacoavlu]

this was Elon’s tweet about the war a month ago for which he was roundly chastised including here on this forum though of course no one discussed any specific criticism or alternative ideas toward peace

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1576969255031296000?s=46&t=Gx14lkGEpwO9m1EZKpp7yw

“Ukraine-Russia Peace:

- Redo elections of annexed regions under UN supervision. Russia leaves if that is will of the people.
- Crimea formally part of Russia, as it has been since 1783 (until Khrushchev’s mistake).
- Water supply to Crimea assured.
- Ukraine remains neutral.“

[Panscan]

this was Elon’s tweet about the war a month ago for which he was roundly chastised including here on this forum though of course no one discussed any specific criticism or alternative ideas toward peace

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1576969255031296000?s=46&t=Gx14lkGEpwO9m1EZKpp7yw

“Ukraine-Russia Peace:

- Redo elections of annexed regions under UN supervision. Russia leaves if that is will of the people.
- Crimea formally part of Russia, as it has been since 1783 (until Khrushchev’s mistake).
- Water supply to Crimea assured.
- Ukraine remains neutral.“

Ya I’m sure those are going to be fair and not tampered with. Come on.

we will grind them to oblivion.

[Panscan]

Did anyone try talking to the guy who is killing off all his oligarchs?

you cannot make this stuff up. Yes if only we were more diplomatic with a megalomaniac, that would get the job done.

[jacoavlu]

Did anyone try talking to the guy who is killing off all his oligarchs?

you cannot make this stuff up. Yes if only we were more diplomatic with a megalomaniac, that would get the job done.

if that’s your view of him then you should also believe that he’s not going to simply leave Ukraine defeated. He obviously has options available which he is not using.

so what do you think we should do?

[Panscan]

if that’s your view of him then you should also believe that he’s not going to simply leave Ukraine defeated. He obviously has options available which he is not using.

so what do you think we should do?

Basically exactly what we are doing now which is working beautifully.