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Ukraine War... How much will S&P drop this week?

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  • Originally posted by nephron View Post

    I'm not saying we should get involved. It just seems ridiculous to tell someone that they can bomb whatever city they want, but don't try to bomb their cities because they might get mad.
    We're already involved. Would you like to escalate the conflict?

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    • Not easy to stop a war once it gets rolling. Look at duration of Vietnam, Iran-Iraq war, Afghanistan, Iraq war. This will be years, and lots of death and destruction.

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      • Originally posted by nephron View Post

        I'm not saying we should get involved. It just seems ridiculous to tell someone that they can bomb whatever city they want, but don't try to bomb their cities because they might get mad.
        I missed the part where they bombed US or NATO countries. So why should we bomb them and escalate to a nuclear war.

        Also by the same logic, they should have supplied missiles to Iraq so that it can reach USA. In proxy war there is a limit to which you can go. Beyond that you escalate into a full fledged war and there is no knowing when nukes will come out.

        I don't know about you, but I don't want to get vaporized because we want to support a corrupt Zelenskyy. No my war, where my country is at risk that I willing to die for.

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        • This war is about much more than Ukraine. Appeasement will lead to China invading Taiwan and then we’ll really see what a global economic collapse looks like.
          Last edited by Dusn; 11-05-2022, 06:13 AM.

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          • Originally posted by Dusn View Post
            This was is about much more than Ukraine. Appeasement will lead to China invading Taiwan and then we’ll really see what a global economic collapse looks like.
            that seems like quite a leap to me

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            • I agree re China. This has substantially weakened them and effectively bought Taiwan more time as China continues its decline and weakening. We will push to prolong and weaken Russia further, which in effect removes chinas strongest ally and substantially weakens them.

              China has massive demographic and economic crisis basically assured in next 10-20, just need to keep kicking can down road as our relative power increases and theirs dwindles.

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              • Originally posted by Panscan View Post
                I agree re China. This has substantially weakened them and effectively bought Taiwan more time as China continues its decline and weakening. We will push to prolong and weaken Russia further, which in effect removes chinas strongest ally and substantially weakens them.

                China has massive demographic and economic crisis basically assured in next 10-20, just need to keep kicking can down road as our relative power increases and theirs dwindles.
                Hope you are correct. Seems like everything is made in China and our ability to make stuff has deteriorated.

                No clue what will happen, but not exactly excited about our future. Hope we get it together.

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                • someone explain why we need to fight proxy war with Russia to weaken Russia and apparently China? how does that help Americans?

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                  • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post
                    someone explain why we need to fight proxy war with Russia to weaken Russia and apparently China? how does that help Americans?
                    If you didn't notice, they hate us. They hate that we are economically and militarily "ahead" of them (for now....I hope). They would love to take over our country. They would basically take over the rest of the world if we were not in their way IMO.

                    Almost anything we can do to prevent them from becoming stronger militarily is probably a good idea. Obviously we need to be smart about how we do this.

                    Good thing Biden is our overall commander.

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                    • Originally posted by Tangler View Post

                      If you didn't notice, they hate us. They hate that we are economically and militarily "ahead" of them (for now....I hope). They would love to take over our country. They would basically take over the rest of the world if we were not in their way IMO.

                      Almost anything we can do to prevent them from becoming stronger militarily is probably a good idea. Obviously we need to be smart about how we do this.

                      Good thing Biden is our overall commander.
                      actually, I haven't noticed. what evidence indicates that they hate us and would love to take over our country?

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                      • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post
                        someone explain why we need to fight proxy war with Russia to weaken Russia and apparently China? how does that help Americans?
                        1) In 1994 the leaders of Ukraine, Russia, Britain, and the United States signed a memorandum to provide Ukraine with security assurances for it to give up its nuclear weapons. It was pretty foolish of Ukraine to do so but that was the deal.

                        2) If we let Russia have Ukraine, many nations will realize that they need nuclear weapons to defend themselves. The more nations that have nuclear weapons, the greater the chance that they'll be used.

                        3) Since WW2 major nations have largely respected each other's territory. The reason for this is because we know that another world war could mean the end of civilization. Nations need to respect the status quo in terms of territorial borders, otherwise we'll get another world war. This time with nuclear weapons.

                        3) Putin was not planning to stop with Ukraine. If he took Ukraine easily he would have invaded other nations

                        4) As we just learned from Putin, if you want to know what a politician is going to do, just listen to him when he talks to his supporters and believe what he says. Just like Putin has always said that Ukraine belonged to Russia, Xi has always said that Taiwan belongs to China and that China will take Taiwan by force if necessary. Taiwan produces the world's most advanced semiconductors and is strategically very important militarily and for the global market. Taiwan very strategically made themselves critical to the world's economy by subsidizing their semiconductor industry and getting so far ahead in technology that every country and major company in the world (in both China and the US) gave up competing with Taiwan on semiconductor production and now just buys their chips from Taiwan. Most estimates say that it'll take at least 10 years for us to catch up to Taiwan in semiconductor capabilities. If China invades Taiwan we'll have a shortage of all goods from both China and Taiwan, including everything that needs semiconductor, and a severe supply chain problem and global economic collapse.

                        5) China's future does not look good economically. As panscan said, if we can get them to hold off on invading Taiwan for long enough maybe they'll be consumed with bigger problems in the future or will be much weaker and will never get around to it. Hopefully by that time, with our own investments in the semiconductors in the CHIPS Act of 2022, we also won't be as reliant on Taiwan.

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                        • Originally posted by Dusn View Post

                          1) In 1994 the leaders of Ukraine, Russia, Britain, and the United States signed a memorandum to provide Ukraine with security assurances for it to give up its nuclear weapons. It was pretty foolish of Ukraine to do so but that was the deal.

                          2) If we let Russia have Ukraine, many nations will realize that they need nuclear weapons to defend themselves. The more nations that have nuclear weapons, the greater the chance that they'll be used.

                          3) Since WW2 major nations have largely respected each other's territory. The reason for this is because we know that another world war could mean the end of civilization. Nations need to respect the status quo in terms of territorial borders, otherwise we'll get another world war. This time with nuclear weapons.

                          3) Putin was not planning to stop with Ukraine. If he took Ukraine easily he would have invaded other nations
                          I don't buy it. First, I think point 2 is a stretch and any connection to China and Taiwan is a stretch. I can't make the leap to justifying Ukrainian and Russian lives sacrificed to protect our interest in semiconductors.

                          Second, we have to admit that continued NATO expansion east after the end of the Warsaw Pact is against Russia's interest. So while Russia invading Ukraine can never be justified, we also shouldn't fail to admit how our past actions have contributed to the situation.

                          It would seem to me that given your thoughts above, a negotiated end where Ukraine makes concessions is a win for Russia and a defeat for the US? I don't see Putin just leaving. So how does the US save face without escalation?

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                          • Originally posted by jacoavlu View Post
                            Second, we have to admit that continued NATO expansion east after the end of the Warsaw Pact is against Russia's interest. So while Russia invading Ukraine can never be justified, we also shouldn't fail to admit how our past actions have contributed to the situation.
                            I am not anti American at all and would be willing to give my life for my adopted country if we were to be directly attacked.

                            Why did we goad and continue our expansion of NATO right up to the Russian border. Once Ukraine joints NATO, there is nothing to prevent it from having nuclear weapons aimed at Russia. And Russia does not like it and said so and yet we ignored them thinking they were bluffing. They called our bluff.

                            Before you say that Ukraine is an independent nation and has a right to decide whether it wants to join NATO or not, well why did we make a huge fuss when Cuba was allowing Soviet Union to install missiles on its soil aiming at USA 90 miles away. We did not like it and had a stand off and naval blockage that could have triggered WWIII. We will never allow Mexico to be close allies of Russia or China. Yet we want to be in Ukraine by proxy. It is do as I say, not as I do.

                            The problem is our biased western media which only prints the western point of view. And most importantly, the military industrial complex which needs to have one war or the other going on at all times in order to keep themselves relevant and make money. If we had peace, they will have no relevance. Even if we settle the Ukraine situation to our benefit, they will incite the Taiwan situation next. They want money, we lose lives.

                            The people of US and Russia don't hate each other. It is just the leaders that hate each other and both militaries are triggered.
                            Last edited by Kamban; 11-08-2022, 07:12 AM.

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                            • Originally posted by Panscan View Post
                              The goal is suffering for everyone besides america. It’s a financial world war we are waging and asserting our position. Weakening China and Russia, the entire point.
                              Sadly, I think there is a lot of truth to that.

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                              • Originally posted by Kamban View Post

                                I missed the part where they bombed US or NATO countries. So why should we bomb them and escalate to a nuclear war.

                                Also by the same logic, they should have supplied missiles to Iraq so that it can reach USA. In proxy war there is a limit to which you can go. Beyond that you escalate into a full fledged war and there is no knowing when nukes will come out.

                                I don't know about you, but I don't want to get vaporized because we want to support a corrupt Zelenskyy. No my war, where my country is at risk that I willing to die for.
                                I agree, and we have already reached a very dangerous point in this conflict where we can begin to question whether this is still just a proxy war, or in fact the start of a kinetic war between nuclear armed superpowers. And the idea that diplomacy is practically a forbidden concept in national politics at such a time when it is so desperately needed is incredibly scary and makes me question the sanity of the people running our country.

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