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Ukraine War... How much will S&P drop this week?

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  • Originally posted by FIREshrink View Post

    Why do you think the Ukrainians would demand anything other than full territorial integrity? That's their right under international law.
    So should we bankroll them in a fool's errand (reclaiming Crimea), or should we support them in achieving objectives that have some reasonable chance of success.

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    • Originally posted by Turf Doc View Post

      I think you know it when you see it. On the news with Ukraine its like putin is the next hitler and pure evil and must be stopped, but when do you ever hear anything about Yemen, much less with that kind of condemnation. I see tons of ukrainian flag profile pictures from people who probably dont even know anything is going on in yemen. its pretty incredible to see how the media can influence your average person
      Another huge factor is that Ukrainians are white and Christian. Yemenis are brown and Muslim. One of those groups is naturally going to elicit more sympathy from more Americans (and this is completely setting aside frank racism which tips the scales even further).

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      • Originally posted by AR View Post

        Another huge factor is that Ukrainians are white and Christian. Yemenis are brown and Muslim. One of those groups is naturally going to elicit more sympathy from more Americans (and this is completely setting aside frank racism which tips the scales even further).
        I still think the biggest factor is the saudis are our “bad guys “ so they get a pass
        In US atrocities of Germans are well remembered but Japanese atrocities , or Turkish genocide of Armenians gets almost no coverage

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        • Originally posted by FIREshrink View Post

          You probably also think the Marshall plan was a bad investment.
          Definitely it wasn’t but the closest analogy of this Ukraine fund is sponsoring of afghan insurgents ( dushmans as Soviets called them) against the red army

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          • Originally posted by nastle View Post

            I still think the biggest factor is the saudis are our “bad guys “ so they get a pass
            In US atrocities of Germans are well remembered but Japanese atrocities , or Turkish genocide of Armenians gets almost no coverage
            I agree that's huge too. And they've got the oil.

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            • Originally posted by Tim View Post
              The elephant in the room is China. Not the country or heritage, CCP specifically.
              Ditto
              look at economic power of PRC vs Russia
              China is a far stronger enemy than ussr ever was yet we don’t even consider them as such even though all their policies seem committed to opposing US interests

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              • Originally posted by AR View Post

                I agree that's huge too. And they've got the oil.
                And I do agree that Iranians are just as ruthless as saudis when given a chance

                problem is when you try to be objective in your political views you annoy the liberals and conservatives alike … welcome to the RINO/DINO club

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                • Originally posted by nastle View Post

                  And I do agree that Iranians are just as ruthless as saudis when given a chance

                  problem is when you try to be objective in your political views you annoy the liberals and conservatives alike … welcome to the RINO/DINO club
                  It is disappointing that the safety and well being of residents of our country are politicized and used for selfish reasons (profits and power). Loyal opposition is suffering a depression on a global basis, not just the US.
                  "in authoritarian and totalitarian states that operate under a façade of multi-party democracy". Sound familiar?

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                  • Originally posted by AR View Post
                    I suspect that powers that be at the Pentagon and State Dept have some clear objectives in mind.
                    Is this the same Pentagon and State Department that had clear objectives in mind as regards to Iraq and Afghanistan but did not want to share it with us.

                    Thanks for the laugh.

                    The people there would not know their rear end from their front, let alone their objectives in Ukraine. But go ahead, spend that $54B and more. We can print our way out of this mess.

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                    • Originally posted by FIREshrink View Post

                      You probably also think the Marshall plan was a bad investment.
                      We have not reached that stage yet. We are pushing for more and more war. Maybe like the cold war broke the Soviet Union this admin thinks the Ukraine war will break the Russians's back. We will see how many dollars that takes.

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                      • Originally posted by Kamban View Post

                        Is this the same Pentagon and State Department that had clear objectives in mind as regards to Iraq and Afghanistan but did not want to share it with us.

                        Thanks for the laugh.

                        The people there would not know their rear end from their front, let alone their objectives in Ukraine. But go ahead, spend that $54B and more. We can print our way out of this mess.
                        It's a little different when you have years of actions to judge versus a few months. This thing Ukraine just started. If we're fighting a proxy war in Ukraine for a decade plus, then that's a different story. Surely you can see the difference.

                        Everyone in the State Dept is incompetent is a piping hot take. As if you're qualified to judge with your vast foreign policy experience.

                        This isn't the Trump government where they're pulling randoms off the street. You can actually go to the State Dept website and view people's credentials. Even the lower level people have lots of pertinent education and experience.



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                        • The more you write the less and less credibility you have. You need not look further than the past 20 years to see how coherent of a military strategy we had in Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention the debacle of Libya. Regarding Ukraine, the congress, potus, secretary of defense etc have all named various goals, there is no coherent strategy, they are all hoping for the best.

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                          • Originally posted by fatlittlepig View Post
                            The more you write the less and less credibility you have. You need not look further than the past 20 years to see how coherent of a military strategy we had in Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention the debacle of Libya. Regarding Ukraine, the congress, potus, secretary of defense etc have all named various goals, there is no coherent strategy, they are all hoping for the best.
                            Yeah, wars are difficult. I'm sure we can look at nearly every war ever waged and find some discrepancy in publicly stated objectives. I'm definitely against getting into them, but sometimes you've got to do it. This is one of those times.

                            Iran and Afghanistan were poorly managed. That doesn't mean this one necessarily will be*. The decision makers are mostly different and they have that experience to draw upon. And even if it is, in this case, a suboptimally managed attempt is far better than the diplomacy-only approach that you seem to want to employ.

                            *This one also won't be perfectly managed. So rest assured when all is said and done, as I said before, with the benefit of hindsight you will be able to convince yourself that whatever was done was not done well and could have been done better if they had only done X.
                            Last edited by AR; 05-20-2022, 11:55 PM.

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                            • “This one also won't be perfectly managed. So rest assured when all is said and done, as I said before, with the benefit of hindsight you will be able to convince yourself that whatever was done was not done well and could have been done better if they had only done “

                              Or “not done” so many things. When the objective is Diversity, Inclusion, Equity, absolutely nothing else matters. Except Global warming. And root causes. And social justice, with no specific objective but what?
                              Greatest thing since sliced bread. Except now the warnings about no bread!
                              You are what your record is. State department has become a political tool, not tasked with foreign relations for the USA, but for a narrow powerful agenda. The world is becoming more dangerous and less prosperous for all except a ruling elite.
                              Not a good path.

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                              • US foreign policy has been disengagement from world security as it is no longer in the US interests since the end of the cold war (the disintergration of the USSR). This has been under Biden, Trump, Obama. The US does not have sufficient troops stationed abroad to be world policeman for years now and world geopolitics has shifted as a result. It's not in the US interest to be world policeman as there isn't much economic benefit.

                                Russia and China both rely heavily on trade exports so the US just has to step away and wait for them to implode, which is what it had been doing.

                                My interpretation is that US policy currently to Russia is that they are pointing nukes at us, so by supporting the Ukrainians, it gets the Russians bogged down.

                                The Russians and the Chinese are screwed demographically and economically. There is a real risk they will implode economically. Although in decline, the governments there can still retain power by moving to ultra-nationalism, which they appear to be doing. Putin wasn't like Hitler initially, but he has to become like that. One of Hitler's salient features was his tactic of surprising his foes with high risk gambles and doubling up on those, with surprising success. Putin has had to do the same as he thought Russia was reaching the point of terminal decline. He has gone all in. His thinking seems to have been that the Russians would lose if he didn't so it was a gamble worth taking.

                                The geopolitics of the current period are completely different to the war on terror. It will have a huge effect on the world. More has happened in geopolitics in the last year than in the last 30.

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