Ukraine War... How much will S&P drop this week?

[Jaqen Haghar MD]

In ww2 it was Soviets not Russians and Ukrainians were complicit in many atrocities of both nazis and Soviets ( and there is no denying millions of Ukrainians were victims too like 9 million killed by dear uncle joe who was FDRs buddy ). So this moral argument is deeply flawed.

Let’s us not resurrect the old blood feuds of Eastern Europe it’s not going to end well
Next the poles and Germans will be dragged in
hopefully Germans will have more sense and try to play US and Russians against each other
let’s hope Mr T “ pities the fools”and comes to our rescue in the next elections

The Soviets were mostly Russians, (after all it did start as the Russian Soviet Republic) though Ukraine did comprise 15% of the old Soviet Union. In my family who lived through occupation, of both Nazi and Russian forces, you find a deep hatred of the Russian forces for the atrocities they committed against them.

There was significant Ukrainian compliance with the Nazis. But you saw this with both sides in many countries. The same people who cooperated with the Nazis, cooperated with the Russians, turning in neighbors, offering information and tips, in order to gain favor and position. These same people were also first in line to spit on the same forces as they were captured and paraded through town in defeat. Opportunists without loyalty or moral codes.

Being part of the Russian controlled Soviet Union was so great for those countries, that after they left it, they clamored to join NATO for protection against their former masters in Russia.

The relationship between the US and the USSR & Stalin was one of necessity against the German war machine of WW2. It quickly deteriorated once that threat was defeated.

[AR]

In ww2 it was Soviets not Russians

You lost me right here. Who exactly are we talking about here? It was just the non-Russian Soviets? Is that what we're going with?

[nastle]

You lost me right here. Who exactly are we talking about here? It was just the non-Russian Soviets? Is that what we're going with?

No Soviets were of many nationalities and yesmajority of them were Russian

im not absolving Russians of any blame just questioning the logic of sacrificing Ukrainian men to further the foreign policy interests of western powers

[Jaqen Haghar MD]

No Soviets were of many nationalities and yesmajority of them were Russian

im not absolving Russians of any blame just questioning the logic of sacrificing Ukrainian men to further the foreign policy interests of western powers

How is the US sacrificing Ukrainian men? These men are fighting for homes, and wives and children that are just a few feet away. They are asking for arms and aid to defend themselves. I can understand an argument where you don’t want to spend money on this, but what you are saying here is very strange.

[nastle]

How is the US sacrificing Ukrainian men? These men are fighting for homes, and wives and children that are just a few feet away. They are asking for arms and aid to defend themselves. I can understand an argument where you don’t want to spend money on this, but what you are saying here is very strange.

Ukraine crisis didn’t develop overnight as you know very well goes back to dissolution of ussr

how NATO handled that and it’s subsequent expansion is also guilty for the quagmire we are in as is Ofcourse the rise of authoritarian tyrants like Putin

This is not just my fringe opinion some very well known researchers have expressed this.

[AR]

Ukraine crisis didn’t develop overnight as you know very well goes back to dissolution of ussr

how NATO handled that and it’s subsequent expansion is also guilty for the quagmire we are in as is Ofcourse the rise of authoritarian tyrants like Putin

This is not just my fringe opinion some very well known researchers have expressed this.

Not exactly sure what this response has to do with the post you're responding to.

Also sounds like someone has been reading a little too much Mearsheimer.

[nastle]

you would not even imagine the disdain of the Poland/Slovakia/Estonia region toward Russia. It’s as real as any of the hate you see here in the us. It’s not for no reason.

pour in the weapons

We can imagine let’s look at the conduct of Wehrmacht and their European recruits on the eastern front in ww2 ( apart from holocaust like the deliberate starvation of Russian POWs)
again I’ll never defend the criminal communists but let’s not assume the other side is blameless either
please try to understand unleashing these demons from the past is only going push Europe to suicide ( third time in living memory)

[nastle]

Not exactly sure what this response has to do with the post you're responding to.

Also sounds like someone has been reading a little too much Mearsheimer.

https://www.amazon.com/Bloodlands-Eu.../dp/0465031471
this for starters

[dataentryspecialist]

We can imagine let’s look at the conduct of Wehrmacht and their European recruits on the eastern front in ww2 ( apart from holocaust like the deliberate starvation of Russian POWs)
again I’ll never defend the criminal communists but let’s not assume the other side is blameless either
please try to understand unleashing these demons from the past is only going push Europe to suicide ( third time in living memory)

I have no idea what you’re trying to say. Your responses have been very difficult to understand. How about you speak plainly and without resorting to tales of the Bolsheviks in the 30’s. We are discussing the invasion of Ukraine by the Russian Federation

[Tim]

How is the US sacrificing Ukrainian men? These men are fighting for homes, and wives and children that are just a few feet away. They are asking for arms and aid to defend themselves. I can understand an argument where you don’t want to spend money on this, but what you are saying here is very strange.

For good reasons or bad reasons, we have seen this story before.
The US has sacrificed many many men in combat. Intentionally and knowingly for political purposes.
Which arms and weapons are provided has been a political decision, not a military decision. Rules of engagement decided by the US have cost lives.
Things like planes and air defense systems and tanks were originally denied and still are. Not for cost, but to placate Putin.
Columns of Russian tanks sitting for days in a straight line should have been easy targets from the air. But, many Ukrainians were sacrificed by choice. Specifically, planes and drones were withheld not for reasons of cost. To “message” to Putin. Make no mistake, the US decided to sacrifice lives.

[nastle]

I have no idea what you’re trying to say. Your responses have been very difficult to understand. How about you speak plainly and without resorting to tales of the Bolsheviks in the 30’s. We are discussing the invasion of Ukraine by the Russian Federation

Unfortunately these issues are not so simple
to disentangle , foreign policy issues you need to go back decades
reminds me of 90s when we were supporting Bosnians and bombing Serbians as if they were the only bad guys in the Balkans
Global or large regional conflicts have complex Origins like ww1 disputes lay far back in 1871 , partition of Polands , Russo Turkish wars etc similarly this crisis cannot be solved just by focusing on current affairs

[nastle]

For good reasons or bad reasons, we have seen this story before.
The US has sacrificed many many men in combat. Intentionally and knowingly for political purposes.
Which arms and weapons are provided has been a political decision, not a military decision. Rules of engagement decided by the US have cost lives.
Things like planes and air defense systems and tanks were originally denied and still are. Not for cost, but to placate Putin.
Columns of Russian tanks sitting for days in a straight line should have been easy targets from the air. But, many Ukrainians were sacrificed by choice. Specifically, planes and drones were withheld not for reasons of cost. To “message” to Putin. Make no mistake, the US decided to sacrifice lives.

Agreed if we are stop putin act decisively and quickly ( by using NATO regular military) none of this phoney war bs
even in the heyday of Cold War of 70s and 80s ussr was never strong enough without nukes to take over Western Europe today they are a mere shadow of that.

[Rando]

Good discussion I think. In general the US has seemed to find ways to get into wars instead of staying out of them. I am concerned about US politicians making noise about neutering Putin and making the Russian army too weak to ever attack another country again. That goes past a goal of defending Ukraine and we would be using Ukraine as a proxy to further our own or Europe's goals. At first there appeared to be a goal of negotiating peace and that seems to have been replaced by "winning".

I'm also concerned about Zelensky being turned into a celebrity. He's certainly charismatic but that shouldn't be a factor in US decision making.

[FIREshrink]

Apparently now even Bush himself views the Iraq war as unjustified.

It was the “decision of one man to launch a wholly unjustified and brutal invasion of Iraq,” former President George W. Bush said Wednesday before quickly correcting himself, saying he meant to describe Russian President Vladimir Putin’s war on Ukraine.
“Iraq, too, anyway,” he added under his breath to laughter from the audience during a speech at his presidential center in Dallas.

[nastle]

Apparently now even Bush himself views the Iraq war as unjustified.

It was the “decision of one man to launch a wholly unjustified and brutal invasion of Iraq,” former President George W. Bush said Wednesday before quickly correcting himself, saying he meant to describe Russian President Vladimir Putin’s war on Ukraine.
“Iraq, too, anyway,” he added under his breath to laughter from the audience during a speech at his presidential center in Dallas.

Let’s not forget saudis have done far worse in Yemen yet no outrage in mainstream media