Bitcoin millionaire

[jacoavlu]

i assume jacoavlu is saying that it's literally not leveraged, but would probably agree that the pros and cons of bitcoin resemble what you get when you leverage other asset classes as you have alluded to

no. buying bitcoin without leverage doesn’t resemble buying other stuff with leverage.

[xraygoggles]

i will bet you 1 btc that there will not be a dogecoin etf in 5 years.

I would take that bet, but since I like to stack sats, I cannot relinquish any of it.

Do you accept Shiba inu or Safemoon? Heard they were new mediums of exchange...

[jacoavlu]

I would take that bet, but since I like to stack sats, I cannot relinquish any of it.

Do you accept Shiba inu or Safemoon? Heard they were new mediums of exchange...

you can either accept the bet or not. no i’m not interested in your shitcoins

would you like to bet a lesser amount? i will even bet USD

[jacoavlu]

you're right, if you worked a normal length career and saved 20% in cash you'd be wealthy compared to 90+% of people in america, no doubt about it. you could argue that therefore it's unecessary to invest even in stocks and bonds like its unnecessary to invest in bitcoin, but i wouldnt take it that far... investing in the former is so easy and lifechanging enough to make it worth it, without unnecessary risk/volatility like the latter (imo)

past returns are not a guarantee of future returns.

again. it’s all easy in america. as long as things pretty much stay the same.

notice any changes in the last 1.5 years?

[Panscan]

to be more clear

vol and price are affected by leverage but price is not determined by leverage. price is determined by the marginal buyer or seller. whether or not they’re using leverage.

so you think if leverage wasn't allowed that crypto would have grown as it has? Idk if i would say leverage determines price if we want to have wordplays here but it certainly contributes. you have a crap ton of leverage (more than any other asset in the world) on one of the most volatile assets in the world.

[jacoavlu]

so you think if leverage wasn't allowed that crypto would have grown as it has? Idk if i would say leverage determines price if we want to have wordplays here but it certainly contributes. you have a crap ton of leverage (more than any other asset in the world) on one of the most volatile assets in the world.

bitcoin not crypto

where is your source there is more leverage than other assets?

majority of coins are not available for sale. this is demonstrably true because the ledger is public

[Panscan]

the amount of leverage permitted in crypto is what amplifies the amount of buyers and sellers. If there wasn't leverage BTC growth would be miniscule compared to now. single digit thousands I bet.

[Panscan]

bitcoin not crypto

where is your source there is more leverage than other assets?

majority of coins are not available for sale. this is demonstrably true because the ledger is public

show me another asset I can go 100x leverage on in as a nobody

[jacoavlu]

the amount of leverage permitted in crypto is what amplifies the amount of buyers and sellers. If there wasn't leverage BTC growth would be miniscule compared to now. single digit thousands I bet.

you made an assertion that you can’t support and you don’t understand how leverage in bitcoin works

[Panscan]

you made an assertion that you can’t support and you don’t understand how leverage in bitcoin works

huh? On numerous exchanges predominately based in asia, you can trade 100x on bitcoin or other cryptos ( since you continually make this distinction even though there is a ton of correlation and no difference in practical purposes)

This is more leverage than average people can get in literally any other form of speculation in the world. Sure I can buy super leveraged futures far higher than 100x but that requires quite a bit more knowledge than clicking a button on a site.

the leverage is what drives the giant green candles that we commonly see and their associated liquidations are also how it can dip so hard. this kind of volatility fuels more speculation and here we are. I feel very comfortable saying prices would be far far lower if there was more regulated leverage. hence how in basically all of the us exchanges there are lower limits of leverage than their asian market counterparts ( such as ftx vs ftx.us)

[Panscan]

agree vol is affected by leverage

disagree price is affected by leverage

if i don’t use leverage and buy and hold long term the folks trading with leverage don’t matter to me. they accelerate pumps and get liquidated on dumps. doesn’t affect me.

it also increases your vol. your price swings more because of them. unless you want to die with your ledger, you have to sell at some point and that vol matters.

[jacoavlu]

it also increases your vol. your price swings more because of them. unless you want to die with your ledger, you have to sell at some point and that vol matters.

again, price vs volatility. if i’m long term buy and hold (the only reasonable bitcoin position in my opinion) i don’t care about day to day vol

[jacoavlu]

huh? On numerous exchanges predominately based in asia, you can trade 100x on bitcoin or other cryptos ( since you continually make this distinction even though there is a ton of correlation and no difference in practical purposes)

This is more leverage than average people can get in literally any other form of speculation in the world. Sure I can buy super leveraged futures far higher than 100x but that requires quite a bit more knowledge than clicking a button on a site.

the leverage is what drives the giant green candles that we commonly see and their associated liquidations are also how it can dip so hard. this kind of volatility fuels more speculation and here we are. I feel very comfortable saying prices would be far far lower if there was more regulated leverage. hence how in basically all of the us exchanges there are lower limits of leverage than their asian market counterparts ( such as ftx vs ftx.us)

“no difference in practical purposes” lol. again another assertion that you can’t support


leveraged positions get liquidated very quickly if the price moves down. the more leverage the less room for error and the more rapid the liquidation

it works for exchanges because bitcoin and other native digital assets are clean collateral. you can’t go 100x leverage or even 2x leverage on credit. it doesn’t work that way. the exchange requires you to post collateral.

if the market moves against your leveraged play the exchange liquidates the position and because the collateral is already held on then exchange the exchange can easily liquidate the position and they hold the asset and so they can easily get off their risk position without loss with the trader owing them money

then the leveraged trader is wrecked and the exchange is clean

so there is no denying that it is pretty easy to leverage in crypto including bitcoin. which contributes to volatility. but that doesn’t mean that price is determined by leverage. because there are always marginal buyers and sellers who are not leveraged.

let’s hear your counter argument.

[Panscan]

There is gigantic correlation between bitcoin and basically all other forms of crypto. The markets move in tandem for the most part. I don't really know anyone else who debates this. Is it 100 %? no, but its close enough where btc, eth, sol, bnb, etc are extremely correlated

I don't understand what you mean about the marginal buyers and sellers who are not leveraged and how that means the leverage doesnt determine the price. sure it literally doesn't determine it but it contributes a ton. I don't think there are exchanges where you get a better price if you are 5x or 20x than 1x, that's not what anyone is saying. Just that the significant amount of leverage in crypto contributes a ton to the price movements both directly and indirectly.

So your view is that if leverage in crypto didn't exist and everyone was forced to trade at 1x since its existence, the price of btc would still be the same as it is now? I think it would be drastically lower.

[jacoavlu]

There is gigantic correlation between bitcoin and basically all other forms of crypto. The markets move in tandem for the most part. I don't really know anyone else who debates this. Is it 100 %? no, but its close enough where btc, eth, sol, bnb, etc are extremely correlated

I don't understand what you mean about the marginal buyers and sellers who are not leveraged and how that means the leverage doesnt determine the price. sure it literally doesn't determine it but it contributes a ton. I don't think there are exchanges where you get a better price if you are 5x or 20x than 1x, that's not what anyone is saying. Just that the significant amount of leverage in crypto contributes a ton to the price movements both directly and indirectly.

So your view is that if leverage in crypto didn't exist and everyone was forced to trade at 1x since its existence, the price of btc would still be the same as it is now? I think it would be drastically lower.

if you think that price correlation equates to “no practical differences” well then i think you’re stupid

also “crypto” people that focus on price correlation tend to focus short term. zoom out would be my advice. and focus on fundamentals.

“price movements” is volatility. again who cares, besides traders or people gambling with leverage. i could care less

you still haven’t supported you assertion about the amount of leverage in the market, with anything other than thoughts and questions.

would the price be this or that without leverage? who knows and who cares. the price is what it is