Bitcoin is still early

[jacoavlu]

"Instant" is over valued and delusional.

it seems we will have to agree to disagree

[xraygoggles]

In case ppl are unaware, and it seems like there are some, Bitcoin is not being gobbled up by institutions due to its potential as a currency.

It's now seen by Smart Money as an entirely new asset class you can hold in your portfolio. Like it or not, it is here to stay. Of course, if you can't handle the volatility, then don't get it.

[Tim]

Bitcoin is 100% global. Negative aspects per who?

It is stuck on the internet. Try to use it to buy property in Mexico or Brazil or Tokyo or pay for a meal or to whatever. It is as useful as sending a cloud to the location. Just need to find a way to get that cloud down. You have to get it down. The negative aspects are that you can't hedge it upon confirmation in a global cash management system nor in in your personal needs for spending. Most hedging for transactional purposes is designed to fix value in the agreed currency. Huge disadvantage in fluctuation and utility. Global acceptance is a mirage.

[Panscan]

I think it could be both, I feel like we don’t know how it will shake out. One thing I’m wondering is if we move to the Satoshi as the currency at some point. If btc hits a million let’s say, a Satoshi would effectively be one cent which is easier for us to process than 0.00000001 btc

[CordMcNally]

It is stuck on the internet. Try to use it to buy property in Mexico or Brazil or Tokyo or pay for a meal or to whatever. It is as useful as sending a cloud to the location. Just need to find a way to get that cloud down. You have to get it down. The negative aspects are that you can't hedge it upon confirmation in a global cash management system nor in in your personal needs for spending. Most hedging for transactional purposes is designed to fix value in the agreed currency. Huge disadvantage in fluctuation and utility. Global acceptance is a mirage.

I can convert it into whatever I need to convert it to nearly instantaneously. Also, I don't think its utility moving forward will be as a traditional currency (and neither do the people buying millions of $$$ of it).

[jacoavlu]

It is stuck on the internet. Try to use it to buy property in Mexico or Brazil or Tokyo or pay for a meal or to whatever.

to spend you convert to fiat. Done. It's not that complex. To convert and spend on a meal would be as stupid as selling AAPL to pay for a meal.

Huge disadvantage in fluctuation and utility. Global acceptance is a mirage

so far the fluctuation has been quite an advantage. Is that bitcoin appreciating or the dollar depreciating? Does it matter?

"Global acceptance" as a concept doesn't apply. Bitcoin is already everywhere the internet is. The on ramps and off ramps are maturing. If legacy financial institutions don't start building their rails to the crypto system they're going to get left behind by new fintech. They know this. The OCC has cleared the way for stablecoin implementation, which will be a huge leap forward.

https://www.occ.gov/news-issuances/n...cc-2021-2.html

[East coast]

In case ppl are unaware, and it seems like there are some, Bitcoin is not being gobbled up by institutions due to its potential as a currency.

It's now seen by Smart Money as an entirely new asset class you can hold in your portfolio. Like it or not, it is here to stay. Of course, if you can't handle the volatility, then don't get it.

I'll nitpick slightly since I regularly connect with people in my industry since it's my job - these banks/institutions/'smart money' are in it because they can take big fees and there's enough demand from clients. They could care less if it goes up or down, whether it's a new asset class or whatnot - these individuals also have said they aren't putting their own money in necessarily. When you see BNY saying they are getting involved that's simply because they see money to be made.

There are a million stories out there of things that institutions get into, make money, drive fees down and then never amount to much of anything long term. SPACs are another example (25% fees on that sucker vs an IPO fee in the 5% range!!!!). Same w Peer to Peer. This is yet another product to be sold.

I'm not explicitly for/against crypto/bitcoin, but keep in mind that if you see 'smart money' coming on board, that doesn't mean they explicitly think it's a good investment. I can assure that's not why all by itself. It starts with, 'what can I earn a fee on'

[jacoavlu]

here is how I look at this: it's either going to zero, or it's going up. It's not going sideways, long term (decades).

So the question is, do you think it's going to zero?

I don't think it is. Adoption is increasing, up and down. Institutional on one end of the spectrum (treasury reserve asset, long term investment). Transactional on the other end (lightning network, strike, alternative to inflating currencies). The regulatory moat is growing ever wider and deeper. Check out Cynthia Lummis' twitter feed. Broad financial services are coming. Lending and borrowing. Derivatives markets. Bitcoin as collateral. Bitcoin mining as a way to monetize stranded energy. Check out what Great American Mining is doing. You think there aren't already nation-states accumulating bitcoin? If you don't think so you're kidding yourself.

So is it going to zero, or going up?

Ross Stevens of NYDIG said it excellently:

“Bitcoin is de-risked… Years ago the conversation was ‘what are chances Bitcoin goes to zero?’ What are the chances that Christianity goes to zero.”

if you don't have time for the full talk Ross gave at Microstrategy's event here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lczPTYf_tvA you can watch a summary here: https://youtu.be/rN11PK3dN-I

[Panscan]

I'll nitpick slightly since I regularly connect with people in my industry since it's my job - these banks/institutions/'smart money' are in it because they can take big fees and there's enough demand from clients. They could care less if it goes up or down, whether it's a new asset class or whatnot - these individuals also have said they aren't putting their own money in necessarily. When you see BNY saying they are getting involved that's simply because they see money to be made.

There are a million stories out there of things that institutions get into, make money, drive fees down and then never amount to much of anything long term. SPACs are another example (25% fees on that sucker vs an IPO fee in the 5% range!!!!). Same w Peer to Peer. This is yet another product to be sold.

I'm not explicitly for/against crypto/bitcoin, but keep in mind that if you see 'smart money' coming on board, that doesn't mean they explicitly think it's a good investment. I can assure that's not why all by itself. It starts with, 'what can I earn a fee on'

the people using it as treasury reserves aren't making fees. Square's treasury reserve isn't being used for fees. I understand what you're saying and I'm sure it is the case for a lot of the banks/transaction companies involved, but there is also plain increasing corporate ownership in treasury reserves which obviously genuinely think it will either go up or maintain value over time.

[Panscan]

here is how I look at this: it's either going to zero, or it's going up. It's not going sideways, long term (decades).

So the question is, do you think it's going to zero?

I don't think it is. Adoption is increasing, up and down. Institutional on one end of the spectrum (treasury reserve asset, long term investment). Transactional on the other end (lightning network, strike, alternative to inflating currencies). The regulatory moat is growing ever wider and deeper. Check out Cynthia Lummis' twitter feed. Broad financial services are coming. Lending and borrowing. Derivatives markets. Bitcoin as collateral. Bitcoin mining as a way to monetize stranded energy. Check out what Great American Mining is doing. You think there aren't already nation-states accumulating bitcoin? If you don't think so you're kidding yourself.

So is it going to zero, or going up?

Ross Stevens of NYDIG said it excellently:

“Bitcoin is de-risked… Years ago the conversation was ‘what are chances Bitcoin goes to zero?’ What are the chances that Christianity goes to zero.”

if you don't have time for the full talk Ross gave at Microstrategy's event here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lczPTYf_tvA you can watch a summary here: https://youtu.be/rN11PK3dN-I

love that talk, watched it myself

[Panscan]

I saw the canadian BTC etf kinda fizzled after the first 2 days, had like 400M AUM in first 2 and then finished around 600M in first week I think. Obviously still good overall for crypto but fell short of prediction a bit. obviously the recent pricing didnt help them

[Tim]

to spend you convert to fiat. Done. It's not that complex. To convert and spend on a meal would be as stupid as selling AAPL to pay for a meal.



so far the fluctuation has been quite an advantage. Is that bitcoin appreciating or the dollar depreciating? Does it matter?

"Global acceptance" as a concept doesn't apply. Bitcoin is already everywhere the internet is. The on ramps and off ramps are maturing. If legacy financial institutions don't start building their rails to the crypto system they're going to get left behind by new fintech. They know this. The OCC has cleared the way for stablecoin implementation, which will be a huge leap forward.

https://www.occ.gov/news-issuances/n...cc-2021-2.html

So if you sell to customers in US Dollars and you buy the goods in BTC, your cost of sales just went through the roof because you sold everything you bought. That is global business. Your purchase orders were contracts. Instant losses are not helpful.
Would you sign a contract that is in BTC for a house and close it in 30 days? Mixing BTC and US$ or any other currency is not suitable for a business.
Pure speculation. It is an advantage only if you bought and held it because the intangible value went up in terms of US$. Translation wise for a business it sucks.

[jacoavlu]

So if you sell to customers in US Dollars and you buy the goods in BTC, your cost of sales just went through the roof because you sold everything you bought. That is global business. Your purchase orders were contracts. Instant losses are not helpful.
Would you sign a contract that is in BTC for a house and close it in 30 days? Mixing BTC and US$ or any other currency is not suitable for a business.
Pure speculation. It is an advantage only if you bought and held it because the intangible value went up in terms of US$. Translation wise for a business it sucks.

Tim as is often the case I have no idea what you're talking about.

you say "it is stuck on the internet". I explain to you how a person could, if they so chose, convert their "internet money" to fiat value for a transaction.

"Suitable for a business" ? You seem to be changing the subject. And/or I can't understand your gibberish

[The Doc]

you guys know any cryptocurrency coaches?

[jacoavlu]

you guys know any cryptocurrency coaches?

uh what