Bitcoin is still early

[jacoavlu]

Because millions of people will go to work in it every day for decades of their life and it will produce lots of goods and services that people actually want to purchase and actually produce more real profits over time? Seems like an odd argument. Or that you don't understand what stocks are and why their value goes up over time.

No. You own Bitcoin because you think people will value it more highly at some later date than they do today. i.e., that it has been mispriced. You recognize that it actually produces nothing, unlikely the broad equities market. Just like everyone else who has bought Bitcoin.

Maybe you're right, I have no idea. But it's silly not to recognize what you're doing, i.e. speculating on its future value.

“it’s speculative” I find as a weak argument which conveniently ignores examining reality

you’ve been wrong since 30X ago https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/5-...t-in-bitcoins/

I think the following is likely:

the US government will continue to deflate the value of the USD relative to other assets, via supply inflation. Other governments will do the same with their fiat currencies

bitcoin will continue to exist and function as designed

bitcoin is unique among “cryptocurrencies”

[Touchdown]

It’s still a commodity the only way you make money is if the person you sell it to is willing to buy it off of you for more than what you paid for it. I prefer to invest in assets that have income. Scarcity alone doesn’t make something valuable, it only is as valuable as what other people think it is.

[jacoavlu]

It’s still a commodity the only way you make money is if the person you sell it to is willing to buy it off for you then what you paid for it. I prefer to invest in assets that have income. Scarcity alone doesn’t make something valuable, it only is as valuable as what other people think it is.

that’s a fine preference. But an argument that chooses to ignore the fundamentals I described

I never suggested scarcity along gives bitcoin value. Many things are scarce, but have little to no value.

[Tim]

to state the obvious for the crowd. These scammers are not bitcoin people. The SBFs and Mashinskys and Do Kwons are not bitcoin people. They are criminal shitcoin banksters and their actions have no relevance to bitcoin

the Tims of the world see all these things as one and the same but these things are not bitcoin

The problem is historic. There is no “honest” price discovery system. You can think as long as you want that “price” just happens. A market takes regulation, market makers, preventing deception and market manipulation.
Market makers and auctions get paid. Bitcoin seems like it has a lot of problems. Keep it offline and how do you exchange it safely? Bankers and brokers are necessary evils.
The dollars these dudes took came from somewhere, people. So far, a lot more damage than benefits.
Cry me a river for all the poor people and countries with unstable currencies. Pirates of the internet.

[jacoavlu]

The problem is historic. There is no “honest” price discovery system.

why is the price at coinbase not an honest price?

[Tim]

why is the price at coinbase not an honest price?

Need more than one exchange. How does coinbase get paid? An unregulated exchange without any competition is a global monopoly. THAT competition is what brought up multiple global stock markets.

[Touchdown]

The problem is bitcoin has no intrensic value it is a widget that has no function and is only as valuable as what someone is willing to buy it off you.

I know the argument is that’s true of all fiat currencies and to some extent that’s right but unlike bitcoin, all fiat currencies are endorsed by a government who states it has value because it represents that government, has an area in the world where it by law has value and said law can be enforced by other government organs (Police, military, etc.)

Bitcoin is backed by no one.

[jacoavlu]

Need more than one exchange. How does coinbase get paid? An unregulated exchange without any competition is a global monopoly. THAT competition is what brought up multiple global stock markets.

there are many exchanges, coinbase is one example, an example of a regulated exchange in the US. They’re a publicly traded company. They make money through various fees, mostly transaction fees, on bitcoin and many shitcoins. They have an otc desk and service large institutions.

Fidelity will sell you bitcoin now. Ever heard of them?

[jacoavlu]

The problem is bitcoin has no intrensic value it is a widget that has no function and is only as valuable as what someone is willing to buy it off you.

I know the argument is that’s true of all fiat currencies and to some extent that’s right but unlike bitcoin, all fiat currencies are endorsed by a government who states it has value because it represents that government, has an area in the world where it by law has value and said law can be enforced by other government organs (Police, military, etc.)

Bitcoin is backed by no one.

feature not a bug. fiat currency value trends to zero long term

bitcoin is backed by proof of work, by electricity, lots and lots of it

[Touchdown]

feature not a bug. fiat currency value trends to zero long term

bitcoin is backed by proof of work, by electricity, lots and lots of it

See there is our fundamental disagreement. I recognize that bitcoin exists, I recognize that there is a legitimate process to prove bitcoin is bitcoin, and I recognize there is a finite amount of bitcoin. I fail to see how any of this is ever going to make it a usable currency, or why it should have any value.

[Tim]

there are many exchanges, coinbase is one example, an example of a regulated exchange in the US. They’re a publicly traded company. They make money through various fees, mostly transaction fees, on bitcoin and many shitcoins. They have an otc desk and service large institutions.

Fidelity will sell you bitcoin now. Ever heard of them?

Fidelity does not sell bitcoin. Fidelity is a brokerage not an exchange.
The two large fish, Binance and Coinbase might not exist. One charged, the other notified. Not looking good for exchanges.

[jacoavlu]

Fidelity does not sell bitcoin. Fidelity is a brokerage not an exchange.
The two large fish, Binance and Coinbase might not exist. One charged, the other notified. Not looking good for exchanges.

Fidelity does sell bitcoin. A quick google search will learn you this. They've had an institutional bitcoin business for years, and now offer it to retail.

Coinbase got a wells notice for selling unregistered securities, because that's exactly what they're doing.

There are many other exchanges. Some only sell bitcoin.

[jacoavlu]

See there is our fundamental disagreement. I recognize that bitcoin exists, I recognize that there is a legitimate process to prove bitcoin is bitcoin, and I recognize there is a finite amount of bitcoin. I fail to see how any of this is ever going to make it a usable currency, or why it should have any value.

I'm curious, do you think a money not issued or controlled by a nation state could have value?

[bovie]

I'm curious, do you think a money not issued or controlled by a nation state could have value?

I think this is kind of a core question, in determining "asset" versus "money."

And the answer, of course, is yes--but only as long as everyone agrees that it has value, and also on what that value is.

The next questions then become, how easily can one convert that value into goods and services, and how widely across the economy can these conversions be executed?

I think those next questions are really what would determine whether this "money" was truly money, or just another asset with some value.

[Touchdown]

I'm curious, do you think a money not issued or controlled by a nation state could have value?

Nation state might be too narrow, I would go with authority that controls a geographic area and is capable of enforcing monetary policy (ie EU/Euro.) I do not think money has any value without this backing. Are you referring to gift cards? I would argue those are still denominated in the currency I describe and they aren’t real money.