Bitcoin is still early

[CordMcNally]

Sure thing, but you also can't use your bitcoin to buy a wide range of things just yet so kind of defeats the purpose of getting that money.

The reason most ransomware attacks aren't solved is because hackers launder their money through privacy coins like XMR which makes the funds untraceable. You can then interract with your centralized exchange without any issue. Example: get your ransomware in btc (or whatever crypto) > swap to XMR > then swap back into btc (or whatever crypto) using multiple receiving addresses > deposit that BTC into an exchange and convert to fiat > enjoy your scam money

Look up the Colonial pipeline hack and see why the feds were able to recoup some of the BTC (spoiler alert, some of the bad actors didn't convert into XMR)

So identities related to BTC movement aren't always known...as I was saying.

[nycEMMD]

So identities related to BTC movement aren't always known...as I was saying.

They are unless you go into a different network like XMR. What the original post implied was that BTC is used to launder money when in reality XMR is used to launder money. You can trace the BTC to some identity at some point. Even in the example above, the BTC that was swapped from XMR and then moved to a centralized exchange is connected to the owner of that account on the centralized exchange, who's identity is known. The only thing XMR does it decouple the knowledge that the owner of the BTC that was acquired fraudulently is the same owner as the BTC that was moved to the exchange. In both cases, the BTC can be traced back to someone's identity on an exchange

[CordMcNally]

They are unless you go into a different network like XMR. What the original post implied was that BTC is used to launder money when in reality XMR is used to launder money. You can trace the BTC to some identity at some point. Even in the example above, the BTC that was swapped from XMR and then moved to a centralized exchange is connected to the owner of that account on the centralized exchange, who's identity is known. The only thing XMR does it decouple the knowledge that the owner of the BTC that was acquired fraudulently is the same owner as the BTC that was moved to the exchange. In both cases, the BTC can be traced back to someone's identity on an exchange

It's clear we're talking in circles.

[nycEMMD]

It's clear we're talking in circles.

Yes we are. You missed the point of my post. Panscan was just stating a common misconception that BTC is untraceable and is a great way to launder money. I tried to tell him to read some more. I should have kept it short

[Panscan]

[QUOTE=nycEMMD;n301532]

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. I have a feeling that again, you're someone that hasn't really done much research on bitcoin but loves to crap on it

First of all, Bitcoin is one of the most traceable assets in the world. let's say someone installed an ransomware program on your computer and demanded 1BTC as payment in order to unlock your files. You could send them that BTC. Do you think this becomes untraceable? In reality, you can trace that BTC from its inception, see which address mined it, who they sold it to, who that person then sold it to themselves and so on. You can see which address you sent it to and then to which address it was sent to afterwards. And it's not just fancy analytic firms that can do this. Anyone can do this. You can do this right now. A 10 yo can do this. It's literally out there for anyone to see. It's called a public ledger for a reason. Laundering money using bitcoin is pretty dumb because converting fiat to BTC and BTC back to fiat requires you going through a centralized exchange which uses KYC (know your customer) so your identity gets revealed at that stage. It's very hard to hide your identity simply using the bitcoin network. Now if you said that people launder money using XMR or Zcash I would give you some credit but you didn't which makes me think that again, you didn't do any research, have no understanding of the network other than some elemental knowledge that CNBC spews out on a daily basis.

If you meant people are using mixers, that's so 2017, not many people have the balls to run a mixer these days

If you meant that people are using NFTs to launder money, sure, but last I checked there's no NFTs on the Bitcoin network, no ability for smart contracts (yet, taproot incoming). So not sure how people are buying NFTs on the bitcoin network. Again, you have very little knowledge about bitcoin or crypto in general and instead of educating yourself on the topic you decide to just spew random garbage that holds no weight



I actually think it's going to get easier to launder money using Bitcoin in the future. Right now there's only certain things you can buy using Bitcoin, most situation require you to convert to fiat which will require you going through a centralized exchange, revealing your identity. However, as BTC becomes legal tender in more countries, you will be able to use that BTC directly without converting which keeps your identity hidden.

I have a feeling most people that are against crypto on this forum have very little understanding of crypto in general. Them commenting here is equivalent to a neurologist going to an orthopod convention and telling a room full of orthopods that they're doing their knee replacements incorrectly. Educate yourself, read a book, read an article, listen to a podcast, try to truly understand what bitcoin is and what crypto as a whole is and then come back and we can have an educated discussion. I have a feeling that once you read a little more about it, you'll change your tune

May I suggest starting here? https://learn.saylor.org/course/PRDV151[/QUOTE

or maybe I have a metric crap ton of exposure to crypto and am also just realistic about its drawbacks. This is a really poor argument. If you’re not high on hopium then you must not know anything about it

[Panscan]

Yes we are. You missed the point of my post. Panscan was just stating a common misconception that BTC is untraceable and is a great way to launder money. I tried to tell him to read some more. I should have kept it short

No actually I never said that.

Laundering does happen through BTC.

[Panscan]

The concept of a public ledger and how you describe it is so laughable. Ya I’m going to launder 100M from one account to another in 1 step so the 10 yr old at home can track it.

Why don’t you give criminals some respect and acknowledge the million steps they can take to obfuscate things. It is frankly embarrassing this needs to be said.

[chucki]

The arguments of BTC/crypto for crime are tired. More crime is done with the USD on absolute and relative basis than crypto. All the FUD keeps getting debunked. As nycEMMD has stated, spend some real, quality time learning about BTC. I have yet to meet anybody who has done a done deep dive and not become a fan. I have mentioned this to many people from my cousin to WCI who respond that they don't want to hear propaganda from Bitcoin evangelists. The mainstream media won't help you in this regards. One really needs to go from Satoshi's whitepaper and move to podcasts, Internet articles, twitter, youtube and books (if you so choose).

We are in an absolute paradigm shift right now. The investing strategies of the legacy financial are rapidly changing and if that's all you rely on you are missing the most pristine asset ever created. For those who grew up in the 80s/90s or earlier, your life was completely different. Remember corded landlines and how a cordless phone was such a big deal? Remember there were no cellphones, so no way of contacting somebody who left the house for an errand or a day trip. Ugly CRT TVs with antennas only or cable, if you lived close enough to town. Everything has changed with the Digital Revolution. Life back then is almost unrecognizable -- good luck even trying to explain it your kids. The legacy fiat system is similarly antiquated. Bitcoin is the digital evolution of money. It's the natural progression of technology.

[nycEMMD]

[QUOTE=Panscan;n301586]

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. I have a feeling that again, you're someone that hasn't really done much research on bitcoin but loves to crap on it

First of all, Bitcoin is one of the most traceable assets in the world. let's say someone installed an ransomware program on your computer and demanded 1BTC as payment in order to unlock your files. You could send them that BTC. Do you think this becomes untraceable? In reality, you can trace that BTC from its inception, see which address mined it, who they sold it to, who that person then sold it to themselves and so on. You can see which address you sent it to and then to which address it was sent to afterwards. And it's not just fancy analytic firms that can do this. Anyone can do this. You can do this right now. A 10 yo can do this. It's literally out there for anyone to see. It's called a public ledger for a reason. Laundering money using bitcoin is pretty dumb because converting fiat to BTC and BTC back to fiat requires you going through a centralized exchange which uses KYC (know your customer) so your identity gets revealed at that stage. It's very hard to hide your identity simply using the bitcoin network. Now if you said that people launder money using XMR or Zcash I would give you some credit but you didn't which makes me think that again, you didn't do any research, have no understanding of the network other than some elemental knowledge that CNBC spews out on a daily basis.

If you meant people are using mixers, that's so 2017, not many people have the balls to run a mixer these days

If you meant that people are using NFTs to launder money, sure, but last I checked there's no NFTs on the Bitcoin network, no ability for smart contracts (yet, taproot incoming). So not sure how people are buying NFTs on the bitcoin network. Again, you have very little knowledge about bitcoin or crypto in general and instead of educating yourself on the topic you decide to just spew random garbage that holds no weight



I actually think it's going to get easier to launder money using Bitcoin in the future. Right now there's only certain things you can buy using Bitcoin, most situation require you to convert to fiat which will require you going through a centralized exchange, revealing your identity. However, as BTC becomes legal tender in more countries, you will be able to use that BTC directly without converting which keeps your identity hidden.

I have a feeling most people that are against crypto on this forum have very little understanding of crypto in general. Them commenting here is equivalent to a neurologist going to an orthopod convention and telling a room full of orthopods that they're doing their knee replacements incorrectly. Educate yourself, read a book, read an article, listen to a podcast, try to truly understand what bitcoin is and what crypto as a whole is and then come back and we can have an educated discussion. I have a feeling that once you read a little more about it, you'll change your tune

May I suggest starting here? https://learn.saylor.org/course/PRDV151[/QUOTE

or maybe I have a metric crap ton of exposure to crypto and am also just realistic about its drawbacks. This is a really poor argument. If you’re not high on hopium then you must not know anything about it

Struck a nerve huh? If you had said XMR was used to launder money, sure thing, wouldn't have heard anything from me. Even if you generalized and said crypto was used to launder money I probably would have kept my mouth shut. But out of all the coins and tokens you could have chosen, you decided to go with BTC as the posterboy for the crypto that's used to launder money? Hmmmmmmm

[nycEMMD]

The arguments of BTC/crypto for crime are tired. More crime is done with the USD on absolute and relative basis than crypto. All the FUD keeps getting debunked. As nycEMMD has stated, spend some real, quality time learning about BTC. I have yet to meet anybody who has done a done deep dive and not become a fan. I have mentioned this to many people from my cousin to WCI who respond that they don't want to hear propaganda from Bitcoin evangelists. The mainstream media won't help you in this regards. One really needs to go from Satoshi's whitepaper and move to podcasts, Internet articles, twitter, youtube and books (if you so choose).

We are in an absolute paradigm shift right now. The investing strategies of the legacy financial are rapidly changing and if that's all you rely on you are missing the most pristine asset ever created. For those who grew up in the 80s/90s or earlier, your life was completely different. Remember corded landlines and how a cordless phone was such a big deal? Remember there were no cellphones, so no way of contacting somebody who left the house for an errand or a day trip. Ugly CRT TVs with antennas only or cable, if you lived close enough to town. Everything has changed with the Digital Revolution. Life back then is almost unrecognizable -- good luck even trying to explain it your kids. The legacy fiat system is similarly antiquated. Bitcoin is the digital evolution of money. It's the natural progression of technology.

Well said

Like I said in a pervious post (which for some reason got a lot of negative feedback), it's mind boggling that some people are still not invested in BTC and crypto in general. I don't get it. When someone tells me they don't invest in crypto, that's the equivalent of someone telling me they don't buy index funds and just keep their money under the mattress because they don't trust banks/brokerages

I thought I was late in 2018 but at that time there was minimal institutional investors and you could still make a very very very weak case for why BTC might not survive. But it's now 2021, there's massive corporations that are holding BTC on their balance sheets, more and more are looking into ways to do this, there's large investment firms getting into BTC, governments are looking into ways to regulate it (giving it legitimacy) or adopting it as legal tender while there's already a country where it is legal tender. And yet, there's still people that think BTC is scam, or in a bubble, or will crash back to 0 soon. Mind boggling

[Panscan]

[QUOTE=nycEMMD;n301621]

Struck a nerve huh? If you had said XMR was used to launder money, sure thing, wouldn't have heard anything from me. Even if you generalized and said crypto was used to launder money I probably would have kept my mouth shut. But out of all the coins and tokens you could have chosen, you decided to go with BTC as the posterboy for the crypto that's used to launder money? Hmmmmmmm

I used Btc bc that is specifically what Napoleon was talking about in terms of gaining fine art market share driving Btc price up.

context matters. You keep saying random stuff that is taken out of the context of the discussion.

all forms are crypto are used for money laundering. Btc included.

[jacoavlu]

being permissionless is a feature not a bug, bitcoin is "money for enemies"

[NapoleanDynamite]

[QUOTE=Panscan;n301647]

I used Btc bc that is specifically what Napoleon was talking about in terms of gaining fine art market share driving Btc price up.

context matters. You keep saying random stuff that is taken out of the context of the discussion.

all forms are crypto are used for money laundering. Btc included.

I whole heartedly agree....but I would add that all forms of money are used for money laundering. The worst offender by far: the US dollar.

[krusebear]

NapoleanDynamite are you buying BTC at these levels or waiting for a correction

[jacoavlu]

NapoleanDynamite are you buying BTC at these levels or waiting for a correction

basically any asset worth buying is at all time highs