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  • VSS bid-ask spread

    Vanguard Int'l Small Cap ETF (VSS) current bid is $99.92 and ask $195.23 (see attached screenshot). That seems....like a wide spread. Am I reading/interpreting this incorrectly?

  • #2
    You're looking after hours I assume from the time of last trade, therefore there is minimal extended hours liquidity in that name it appears. Wide spreads are common pre/post regular market hours.

    Comment


    • #3
      Ahh yes, this was at like 3:30 CST which I guess is after their 4pm EST cut-off. I did not realize that at the time. I went through the motions of buying several shares and it would quote me a price based on the NAV but then if I went to finalize the cost for those shares would jump to the "Ask" price (ie, almost double). If I hypothetically submitted that order, it would go for whatever NAV was when the markets open tomorrow (or more precisely, exactly when the trade is executed) since it's an ETF and not MF, correct?

      Comment


      • #4
        I wouldn't make a habit of putting in buy/sell orders for ETFs when the markets are closed. That's a big downside of ETFs for me actually. If the costs were all the same, I would just stick with traditional mutual funds and take the end of day pricing. The problem is in my 401(k) and HSA the costs are MUCH less to use ETFs, so that's what I do. Thankfully Vanguard's index funds have both types of shares.
        Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

        Comment


        • #5
          You can just put your order in as Market on Close (moc), maybe depending on your broker.

          If you entered that bid after hours and were on an after hours screen, meaning usually a warning sign popped up to let you know its after hours and the trade would execute, it would go through and you'd have made someones year. Some people put these crazy quotes out just so those that dont know will make a mistake. Usually your brokerage will have a pop up saying this will be executed on open, etc...but not always. Be careful out there.

          Comment


          • #6




            Vanguard Int’l Small Cap ETF (VSS) current bid is $99.92 and ask $195.23 (see attached screenshot). That seems….like a wide spread. Am I reading/interpreting this incorrectly?
            Click to expand...


            As others have said, when you look at the bid-ask after hours, the spread will be very large.

            According to Fidelity, the typical bid-ask spread of VSS is around 0.07%.

            https://screener.fidelity.com/ftgw/etf/goto/snapshot/snapshot.jhtml?symbols=VSS

            I use market orders when I buy ETFs, but I always do it during regular market hours (ideally in the middle of the day when the market is less volatile).

            -WSP

             

            Comment


            • #7




              Stay away from this ETF. It’s not liquid. The industry went a little overboard with these instruments. Wasn’t there a MENA Underwater Basket-Weaving ETF they tried to float?

               

              Before stepping into anything always have an exit strategy. Check the historical volumes and make sure it’s not an ETN which is a debt instrument with credit risk. Also check the components and see if you really want exposure these stocks. Beware of “de-worsefication.” A good portion of the holdings may have over-levered balance sheets or have to much of a weighting to real estate or finance.
              Click to expand...


              Are you nuts? You don't think VSS is liquid? Have you ever purchased it? The spread right now during open trading hours is 6 cents. That's about 0.06%. The average volume is 134,000 shares. I mean it's not 2.5 Million shares like VTI, but it's hardly illiquid. I've never had to wait more than a couple of minutes to trade a share at a value within the spread. Do you know of a more liquid ETF in that particular asset class? I don't.

              And no, VSS isn't an ETN. It's a very well-known and successful Vanguard index fund consisting of thousands (3446 this month) of international small cap stocks. Did you even look it up before commenting?
              Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

              Comment


              • #8
                Okay, today it ranged from 102.70 to 102.91. Not sure why you think that looks like a penny stock.

                You get upset way too easily. If you really hate this aspect of it, just buy the fund and take the end of day pricing.
                Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

                Comment


                • #9
                  That's the same for any stock or ETF you buy on the open market. 90% of trading is done by institutions these days. Hardly unique to VSS.

                  No reason you or I need to trade during any kind of crisis. Money invested in securities like this should be money you don't need for 5, 10, 30+ years.
                  Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have no idea if we are in for a "bear bear", a "sovereign debt restructuring," or "an effect on valuations of all asset classes." My crystal ball is always so murky. So I have tried to make my investment plan likely to succeed no matter what type of future economic conditions we see over my investment horizon. I recommend you do the same. Diversification protects us from what we don't know and there is an awful lot about the future that we do not and cannot know.
                    Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

                    Comment


                    • #11







                      I have no idea if we are in for a “bear bear”, a “sovereign debt restructuring,” or “an effect on valuations of all asset classes.” My crystal ball is always so murky. So I have tried to make my investment plan likely to succeed no matter what type of future economic conditions we see over my investment horizon. I recommend you do the same. Diversification protects us from what we don’t know and there is an awful lot about the future that we do not and cannot know.
                      Click to expand…


                      99% are totally unprepared. They are extrapolating the last 20 years of financial asset inflation into the next 20 years not realizing what really drove the bond and stock markets during that time. It was the EuroDollar markets coming into their own. It was all a huge EuroDollar credit bubble outside the control of the Fed. This is why it gave up publishing M3. It was moot. This created the 2000 dotcom bubble, and the 2007 MBS bubble until…

                      August 9, 2007 was when the Eurodollar funded markets died and despite all the efforts of QE and currency swaps the Eurodollar banks are still Not taking advantage of some wide open arbitrage opportunities. Why is that? What do they fear? Who was stupid enough to keep lending EuroDollars to the EMs? Oh, that was DeutscheBank. And which Systemically Important Financial Institution threatens to disrupt the global marketplace? And what happened last September when it threatened to trade below 10 dollars? As Gundlach said, ” If DB trades single digits, people are going to cry for something to be done.” And something was done– a huge engineered short squeeze that piggybacked on that Trumpflation narrative so that the cover was provided for DB and CS to raise equity at a much higher price.

                      Read Jeffrey Snider’s posts over at Alhambra. He’s practically the only one who write about this. He posts once or twice a day about the structural sickness of the global monetary system. Nothing has been fixed.

                      http://www.alhambrapartners.com/2017/03/29/the-ultimate-q/

                       
                      Click to expand...


                      Over the last 20 years the markets have gone nowhere. We literally just popped up above that line of resistance. That was a generational bear market with a couple uppercuts thrown in. Not saying the global monetary system is a healthy horse, just saying the last twenty years were terrible, and america was digesting and working off the baby boomer glut. Now we're back to prime working age and as long as that holds it should slowly get better.

                      Comment


                      • #12







                        I have no idea if we are in for a “bear bear”, a “sovereign debt restructuring,” or “an effect on valuations of all asset classes.” My crystal ball is always so murky. So I have tried to make my investment plan likely to succeed no matter what type of future economic conditions we see over my investment horizon. I recommend you do the same. Diversification protects us from what we don’t know and there is an awful lot about the future that we do not and cannot know.
                        Click to expand…


                        99% are totally unprepared. They are extrapolating the last 20 years of financial asset inflation into the next 20 years not realizing what really drove the bond and stock markets during that time. It was the EuroDollar markets coming into their own. It was all a huge EuroDollar credit bubble outside the control of the Fed. This is why it gave up publishing M3. It was moot. This created the 2000 dotcom bubble, and the 2007 MBS bubble until…

                        August 9, 2007 was when the Eurodollar funded markets died and despite all the efforts of QE and currency swaps the Eurodollar banks are still Not taking advantage of some wide open arbitrage opportunities. Why is that? What do they fear? Who was stupid enough to keep lending EuroDollars to the EMs? Oh, that was DeutscheBank. And which Systemically Important Financial Institution threatens to disrupt the global marketplace? And what happened last September when it threatened to trade below 10 dollars? As Gundlach said, ” If DB trades single digits, people are going to cry for something to be done.” And something was done– a huge engineered short squeeze that piggybacked on that Trumpflation narrative so that the cover was provided for DB and CS to raise equity at a much higher price.

                        Read Jeffrey Snider’s posts over at Alhambra. He’s practically the only one who write about this. He posts once or twice a day about the structural sickness of the global monetary system. Nothing has been fixed.

                        http://www.alhambrapartners.com/2017/03/29/the-ultimate-q/

                         
                        Click to expand...


                        So that's 50 posts of this kind of stuff in the last couple of weeks. When do you get to the point about what you're invested in and why you think that's smart?
                        Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well, this got off track.

                          WCI said: "That’s a big downside of ETFs for me actually. If the costs were all the same, I would just stick with traditional mutual funds"

                          This is the only ETF I currently own as I prefer mutual funds (currently only have tax advantaged accounts--not sure yet which I'd choose for taxable) and only do so bc there is no Admiral Share class. The ETF's ER is less than half of the Investor Share class'.

                          I like MF's end of day pricing as well as ability to buy fractional shares.

                          Also, VSS is plenty liquid.

                          Comment


                          • #14













                            I have no idea if we are in for a “bear bear”, a “sovereign debt restructuring,” or “an effect on valuations of all asset classes.” My crystal ball is always so murky. So I have tried to make my investment plan likely to succeed no matter what type of future economic conditions we see over my investment horizon. I recommend you do the same. Diversification protects us from what we don’t know and there is an awful lot about the future that we do not and cannot know.
                            Click to expand…


                            99% are totally unprepared. They are extrapolating the last 20 years of financial asset inflation into the next 20 years not realizing what really drove the bond and stock markets during that time. It was the EuroDollar markets coming into their own. It was all a huge EuroDollar credit bubble outside the control of the Fed. This is why it gave up publishing M3. It was moot. This created the 2000 dotcom bubble, and the 2007 MBS bubble until…

                            August 9, 2007 was when the Eurodollar funded markets died and despite all the efforts of QE and currency swaps the Eurodollar banks are still Not taking advantage of some wide open arbitrage opportunities. Why is that? What do they fear? Who was stupid enough to keep lending EuroDollars to the EMs? Oh, that was DeutscheBank. And which Systemically Important Financial Institution threatens to disrupt the global marketplace? And what happened last September when it threatened to trade below 10 dollars? As Gundlach said, ” If DB trades single digits, people are going to cry for something to be done.” And something was done– a huge engineered short squeeze that piggybacked on that Trumpflation narrative so that the cover was provided for DB and CS to raise equity at a much higher price.

                            Read Jeffrey Snider’s posts over at Alhambra. He’s practically the only one who write about this. He posts once or twice a day about the structural sickness of the global monetary system. Nothing has been fixed.

                            http://www.alhambrapartners.com/2017/03/29/the-ultimate-q/

                             
                            Click to expand…


                            Over the last 20 years the markets have gone nowhere. We literally just popped up above that line of resistance. That was a generational bear market with a couple uppercuts thrown in. Not saying the global monetary system is a healthy horse, just saying the last twenty years were terrible, and america was digesting and working off the baby boomer glut. Now we’re back to prime working age and as long as that holds it should slowly get better.
                            Click to expand…


                            The boomer glut is just starting. They will now be distributing financial assets, not accumulating. And their consumption will drop. The demographic hangover is just beginning. All over the developed world. Chris Hamilton is all over this topic. Inexorable deflation of financial assets is the cards for quite awhile.

                            https://econimica.blogspot.com/2017/03/required-minimum-distributions-spells.html

                            The CBs should have allowed Winter to manifest after the dotcom bust, but its mission statement is to protect the banks at all costs. All they’ve done is make the credit bubble bigger. The Eurodollar got way out of control, but hey, it financed the globalist dream. It was fun while it lasted. At least you all got think you were rich for awhile.

                             
                            Click to expand...


                            Still avoiding the question.

                            You know, I find it very interesting how pessimists can always sound so smart even when they turn out to be wrong year after year, while agnostics sound so dumb even while they turn out to be right year after year after year.

                            If your investment strategy requires you to predict the future accurately to be successful, you'd better be very good at predicting the future to rely on that.
                            Helping those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street since 2011

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              ^^

                              Quoting Ben Carlson from today's blog, parodying financialspeak:

                              "I’ve seen this movie before and it ends badly. It’s about a canary in a coal mine who never should have shorted a dull market before getting punched in the face by Mike Tyson without a plan while skating to where the puck is going to catch a falling knife. This movie was more of a marathon than a sprint and the lead character was obviously playing chess while everyone around him played checkers. I believe this movie is fairly valued…unless this time is different."

                              http://awealthofcommonsense.com/2017/03/what-if-other-areas-of-life-operated-like-wall-street/

                              LOL

                              Disclosure: Long VSS

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