JAMA article on Net Worth Shock and Mortality

[Zaphod]

docnews wrote:

 

I think the opposite side (WCI included) is saying this group is counting their eggs before they hatch. I do agree being a resident physician is different than a homeless person with a lottery ticket; the doc’s trajectory has a greater likelihood of being wealthy but they aren’t yet. But even with this near certainty you can’t say they are not poor now since if they lose their medical license they are now worse off than the homeless person as soon as the bills come due.

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But this scenario of losing the ability to command a wage commensurate with your training, costs, etc...is a risk for everyone all the time. Its not a unique factor and thus can be discarded.

 

[Complete_newbie]

Zaphid, AR, and I (few others may be) are looking at grades of wealth and atleast zaphod and I are appreciative of the longitudinal view of wealth than a cross sectional right now NW as measure of wealth. That assigns a poor not poor incorrectly.

To me personally it's ok but not really a good measure. A good mathematical modeling can be made for such a problem but since I can think in my head and am lazy about putting it into practice right now (would include rate of NW , age, mortality etc etc) ... I am writing this mostly for qschool inquiring about the "clarity " I had . I guess sort of like how actuaries and banks look at your credit profile.

May be wait on my blog post lol.

[Hatton]

I agree with Dr Mom that this nomenclature debate is worthless.  I now remember why I declined the opportunity to join my high school debate team.

[AR]

hatton1 wrote:

I agree with Dr Mom that this nomenclature debate is worthless.  I now remember why I declined the opportunity to join my high school debate team.

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I get where you're coming from, but comparing posting on a message board to what goes on in academic debate, even at the high school level, is silly.

[Donnie]

hatton1 wrote:

I agree with Dr Mom that this nomenclature debate is worthless.  I now remember why I declined the opportunity to join my high school debate team.

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While reaching diminishing returns, the reason the debate isn't pointless is because calling a person poor who is making $500k reduces the impact of the message.  Shock value may work on people with lower than average intelligence.  Others will throw out the baby with the bathwater and reject the entire message because it is completely inane to call a doc with a huge house, eating at fancy restaurants, dressing nicely, sending kids to private schools, etc. etc. poor.

When you use a word improperly for shock value it tells you one of two things: (i) the message isn't good enough to stand on its own merits or (ii) the person delivering the message is unsophisticated and unable to make actually compelling arguments.  Either way, when I hear statements delivered for "shock value", I immediately tune out.

[AR]

Donnie wrote:

While reaching diminishing returns, the reason the debate isn’t pointless is because calling a person poor who is making $500k reduces the impact of the message.  Shock value may work on people with lower than average intelligence.  Others will throw out the baby with the bathwater and reject the entire message because it is completely inane to call a doc with a huge house, eating at fancy restaurants, dressing nicely, sending kids to private schools, etc. etc. poor. When you use a word improperly for shock value it tells you one of two things: (i) the message isn’t good enough to stand on its own merits or (ii) the person delivering the message is unsophisticated and unable to make actually compelling arguments.  Either way, when I hear statements delivered for “shock value”, I immediately tune out.

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Agree with this completely, but I think if we got to the point where everyone espousing that viewpoint was saying "Yeah, well, I know they're not really poor, I'm just using that for 'shock value'", that would be bad, but an improvement.  We haven't even made it that far yet.  It seems some people think that poor is actually the correct way to describe those people.

[White.Beard.Doc]

There is value to this debate.

It is so sad when a two physician couple lives in a high cost of living area for 25 years and spends all of their earnings on housing, vacations, nannies, private schools and more so that there is nothing left to show from that income over all those years.  And they have been earning well north of half a mil' a year for quite a while.  Tragic, no?

 

There is value to this debate.

It is so sad when my colleague in his late 50s comes to me to beg for an emergency loan because he has squandered all of his earnings on parties, travel, expensive rent and all he has to show for a long career with over 300k in income is a bunch of maxed out credit cards with 18% annual interest.

 

There is value to this debate.

My heart breaks for my colleague who had her 60th birthday, who had to borrow an advance on pay to cover the property taxes on her house, who is in default on her student loans that still have a balance and penalties that will never be paid back in this lifetime.

 

We may be good at science, but there is value to a debate among physicians about prudent financial decision making.

[Donnie]

White.Beard.Doc wrote:

There is value to this debate.

It is so sad when a two physician couple lives in a high cost of living area for 25 years and spends all of their earnings on housing, vacations, nannies, private schools and more so that there is nothing left to show from that income over all those years.  And they have been earning well north of half a mil’ a year for quite a while.  Tragic, no?

 

There is value to this debate.

It is so sad when my colleague in his late 50s comes to me to beg for an emergency loan because he has squandered all of his earnings on parties, travel, expensive rent and all he has to show for a long career with over 300k in income is a bunch of maxed out credit cards with 18% annual interest.

 

There is value to this debate.

My heart breaks for my colleague who had her 60th birthday, who had to borrow an advance on pay to cover the property taxes on her house, who is in default on her student loans that still have a balance and penalties that will never be paid back in this lifetime.

 

We may be good at science, but there is value to a debate among physicians about prudent financial decision making.

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Educating people about what can happen to them later in life if they live it up as in your examples is a good idea, but I am not sure those are tragic examples.  These people probably have a lifetime of great experiences to remember.  They may have to pay for it now, but to each his own.  Certainly they won't be living in a van down by the river in any of the cases.

[White.Beard.Doc]

Donnie wrote:

White.Beard.Doc wrote:

There is value to this debate.

It is so sad when a two physician couple lives in a high cost of living area for 25 years and spends all of their earnings on housing, vacations, nannies, private schools and more so that there is nothing left to show from that income over all those years.  And they have been earning well north of half a mil’ a year for quite a while.  Tragic, no?

 

There is value to this debate.

It is so sad when my colleague in his late 50s comes to me to beg for an emergency loan because he has squandered all of his earnings on parties, travel, expensive rent and all he has to show for a long career with over 300k in income is a bunch of maxed out credit cards with 18% annual interest.

 

There is value to this debate.

My heart breaks for my colleague who had her 60th birthday, who had to borrow an advance on pay to cover the property taxes on her house, who is in default on her student loans that still have a balance and penalties that will never be paid back in this lifetime.

 

We may be good at science, but there is value to a debate among physicians about prudent financial decision making.

Click to expand…

Educating people about what can happen to them later in life if they live it up as in your examples is a good idea, but I am not sure those are tragic examples.  These people probably have a lifetime of great experiences to remember.  They may have to pay for it now, but to each his own.  Certainly they won’t be living in a van down by the river in any of the cases.

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Donnie, some of these folks would love to have a choice in the decision whether or not they need to work to infinity.  And if they had chosen the 15k ski vacation rather than the 30k ski vacation, would they really have deprived themselves of a life changing experience?  Do you really need to stay at the St. Regis for your ski vacation, or would something a little bit less pricey have been just as much fun?

[AR]

White.Beard.Doc wrote:

There is value to this debate.

It is so sad when a two physician couple lives in a high cost of living area for 25 years and spends all of their earnings on housing, vacations, nannies, private schools and more so that there is nothing left to show from that income over all those years.  And they have been earning well north of half a mil’ a year for quite a while.  Tragic, no?

 

There is value to this debate.

It is so sad when my colleague in his late 50s comes to me to beg for an emergency loan because he has squandered all of his earnings on parties, travel, expensive rent and all he has to show for a long career with over 300k in income is a bunch of maxed out credit cards with 18% annual interest.

 

There is value to this debate.

My heart breaks for my colleague who had her 60th birthday, who had to borrow an advance on pay to cover the property taxes on her house, who is in default on her student loans that still have a balance and penalties that will never be paid back in this lifetime.

 

We may be good at science, but there is value to a debate among physicians about prudent financial decision making.

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That's all true.  But we're not actually debating financial decision making.  We're debating what words mean.

On the one hand, all those people are in bad shape and whether you want to call them 'not rich' or call them 'poor', but either way, talking about how to prevent those outcomes has high value.

Debating whether to call them poor or not is a different issue and it has value too, for the reasons Donnie pointed out above. Perhaps, less value, but there is still some there.

[Donnie]

White.Beard.Doc wrote:

Donnie wrote:

White.Beard.Doc wrote:

There is value to this debate.

It is so sad when a two physician couple lives in a high cost of living area for 25 years and spends all of their earnings on housing, vacations, nannies, private schools and more so that there is nothing left to show from that income over all those years.  And they have been earning well north of half a mil’ a year for quite a while.  Tragic, no?

 

There is value to this debate.

It is so sad when my colleague in his late 50s comes to me to beg for an emergency loan because he has squandered all of his earnings on parties, travel, expensive rent and all he has to show for a long career with over 300k in income is a bunch of maxed out credit cards with 18% annual interest.

 

There is value to this debate.

My heart breaks for my colleague who had her 60th birthday, who had to borrow an advance on pay to cover the property taxes on her house, who is in default on her student loans that still have a balance and penalties that will never be paid back in this lifetime.

 

We may be good at science, but there is value to a debate among physicians about prudent financial decision making.

Click to expand…

Educating people about what can happen to them later in life if they live it up as in your examples is a good idea, but I am not sure those are tragic examples.  These people probably have a lifetime of great experiences to remember.  They may have to pay for it now, but to each his own.  Certainly they won’t be living in a van down by the river in any of the cases.

Click to expand…

Donnie, some of these folks would love to have a choice in the decision whether or not they need to work to infinity.  And if they had chosen the 15k ski vacation rather than the 30k ski vacation, would they really have deprived themselves of a life changing experience?  Do you really need to stay at the St. Regis for your ski vacation, or would something a little bit less pricey have been just as much fun?

Click to expand...

Of course they did have the choice.  Education is a good idea, and this site does a great job of educating those who want to listen.

[Hatton]

White.Beard.Doc wrote:

There is value to this debate.

It is so sad when a two physician couple lives in a high cost of living area for 25 years and spends all of their earnings on housing, vacations, nannies, private schools and more so that there is nothing left to show from that income over all those years.  And they have been earning well north of half a mil’ a year for quite a while.  Tragic, no?

 

There is value to this debate.

It is so sad when my colleague in his late 50s comes to me to beg for an emergency loan because he has squandered all of his earnings on parties, travel, expensive rent and all he has to show for a long career with over 300k in income is a bunch of maxed out credit cards with 18% annual interest.

 

There is value to this debate.

My heart breaks for my colleague who had her 60th birthday, who had to borrow an advance on pay to cover the property taxes on her house, who is in default on her student loans that still have a balance and penalties that will never be paid back in this lifetime.

 

We may be good at science, but there is value to a debate among physicians about prudent financial decision making.

Click to expand...

Good points.  I think there is no real value to debating the definition of rich versus poor but there is lots of value in thinking about why some high earning docs need emergency loans at 60.  I think it is likely a series of poor choices that high income cannot reverse.  I see it with some who have had expensive divorces and late in life children.

[Dr. Mom]

Dr.V. Investor wrote:

thevaluedoc wrote:

Gonna go off topic. 

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there’s no off topic in this thread.  interesting read.  personal finance is personal.

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Apparently staying on topic on this post is off topic!

[White.Beard.Doc]

Dr. Mom wrote:

Apparently staying on topic on this post is off topic!

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I wonder if the financial stresses of those physicians who have planned little for financial stability later in life will have a significant effect on longevity?

How's that for back on topic?

[Dr. Mom]

White.Beard.Doc wrote:

Dr. Mom wrote:

Apparently staying on topic on this post is off topic!

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I wonder if the financial stresses of those physicians who have planned little for financial stability later in life will have a significant effect on longevity?

How’s that for back on topic?

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Thanks for making me laugh!